"Legs" moved the panel & left his brothers behind

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wyreman

wyreman

Senior Member
Location
SF CA USA
Occupation
electrical contractor
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEg3K6ogQ6KQruqSwf

I have a job at a city park building
...Add some circuits
Opened the can and... looks weird...
=>oh- theres no neutrals!

So what I can see happened was:
an "unqualified person" had to move the panel and he just ran the circuits as switch legs.
Section 300-3 (b) ' "All conductors of the same circuit, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, cable tray, trench, cable, or cord."
and
Section 210-4 General. Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be permitted as multiwire circuits. A multiwire branch circuit shall be permitted to be considered as multiple circuits. All conductors shall originate from the same panelboard.
Click to expand...

So here's the thing.
To make this a compliant installation it seems you would have to tear the whole thing out and do over

The only way to use the existing panel would be to bring a system neutral over and then back for the new circuits
And then condemn the existing installation.

Am I missing something?

IMG_3260.jpg
170503_183308.jpg

To preserve the existing installation, you would have to
  • restore the original panel,
  • pull a system neutral to the extension panel to pick up any cts that start there,
  • and do something to rework the horseshoe pipe, because its likely more than 24" so it needs fastened and conductor fill limits minded [its an odd 45^ corner]


Too bad cause they are nice people and on a budget.
 
Last edited:
The SqD circuit breaker panel looks to have a "system" neutral landed on the neutral lug of the neutral terminal bar. . . is it not actually connected up stream to the service grounded conductor?

I'd be real curious to see into that J-box, what looks to be an 8" x 8" x 4", to see how the existing branch circuit grounded conductors are spliced. . . along with all the energized conductors. . .
 
wyreman said:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEg3K6ogQ6KQruqSwf

I have a job at a city park building
...Add some circuits
Opened the can and... looks weird...
=>oh- theres no neutrals!

So what I can see happened was:
an "unqualified person" had to move the panel and he just ran the circuits as switch legs.


So here's the thing.
To make this a compliant installation it seems you would have to tear the whole thing out and do over

The only way to use the existing panel would be to bring a system neutral over and then back for the new circuits
And then condemn the existing installation.

Am I missing something?

View attachment 17691
View attachment 17692

To preserve the existing installation, you would have to
  • restore the original panel,
  • pull a system neutral to the extension panel to pick up any cts that start there,
  • and do something to rework the horseshoe pipe, because its likely more than 24" so it needs fastened and conductor fill limits minded [its an odd 45^ corner]


Too bad cause they are nice people and on a budget.
Click to expand...

Code: 
210.4 (A) General. Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be permitted as multiwire circuits. Amultiwire circuit shall be permitted to be considered as multiple circuits. All conductors of amultiwire branch circuit shall originate from the same panelboard or similar distribution equipment.
 
wyreman said:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEg3K6ogQ6KQruqSwf

I have a job at a city park building
...Add some circuits
Opened the can and... looks weird...
=>oh- theres no neutrals!

So what I can see happened was:
an "unqualified person" had to move the panel and he just ran the circuits as switch legs.


So here's the thing.
To make this a compliant installation it seems you would have to tear the whole thing out and do over

The only way to use the existing panel would be to bring a system neutral over and then back for the new circuits
And then condemn the existing installation.

Am I missing something?

View attachment 17691
View attachment 17692

To preserve the existing installation, you would have to
  • restore the original panel,
  • pull a system neutral to the extension panel to pick up any cts that start there,
  • and do something to rework the horseshoe pipe, because its likely more than 24" so it needs fastened and conductor fill limits minded [its an odd 45^ corner]


Too bad cause they are nice people and on a budget.
Click to expand...

Just a couple of things you may want to address:
1) Conduit fill/ de-rating for the 1 1/2" conduit.
2) Tripped breaker.
3) Possible KO seal needed where it looks like duct tape on side of panel.
4) Somebody is looking for their Carmex lip balm. They left it on top of the electrical panel. ;)
 
wyreman said:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEg3K6ogQ6KQruqSwf

I have a job at a city park building
...Add some circuits
Opened the can and... looks weird...
=>oh- theres no neutrals!

So what I can see happened was:
an "unqualified person" had to move the panel and he just ran the circuits as switch legs.


So here's the thing.
To make this a compliant installation it seems you would have to tear the whole thing out and do over

The only way to use the existing panel would be to bring a system neutral over and then back for the new circuits
And then condemn the existing installation.

Am I missing something?

View attachment 17691
View attachment 17692

To preserve the existing installation, you would have to
  • restore the original panel,
  • pull a system neutral to the extension panel to pick up any cts that start there,
  • and do something to rework the horseshoe pipe, because its likely more than 24" so it needs fastened and conductor fill limits minded [its an odd 45^ corner]


Too bad cause they are nice people and on a budget.
Click to expand...

If you can cut and fit an "auxiliary gutter" on that funny angle between the pull box and the panel you would be allowed to keep the neutral bar in the pull box. 300.3(B)(4)
 
tortuga said:
If you can cut and fit an "auxiliary gutter" on that funny angle between the pull box and the panel you would be allowed to keep the neutral bar in the pull box. 300.3(B)(4)
Click to expand...
Additional photos in the link at the top of the opening post show the neutral bar is not in the pull box, but rather somewhere else not shown in any pictures, further upstream on the painted 1-1/2" pipe. Branch circuits and feeder are all together and coming from somewhere else in the building.
 
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