Let your customers know about appliances EARLY

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sfav8r

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I thought I would throw this out since it has reared its ugly head again. For reasons I still don't understand some manufacturers (Wolfe for example) are listing a requirement for a DEDICATED circuit for their stove igniters. Yes, of course everyone would love to have everything on a dedicated circuit, but seriously a stove igniter? In some cases a new circuit isn't such a big deal. On a project we did awhile back it meant running conduit from 6 condos down 1-3 stories to the electrical panels in the alley. It was so cost prohibitive that I called Wolfe and asked for something in writing eliminating the requirement so that the inspector would be OK and also for the clients warranty. They said that the igniters are "very sophisticated" and should be on a dedicated circuit. In that case the customer opted to eat the restocking fee and purchase different appliances. The job we're on currently (again Wolfe) the client has just agreed to run a new circuit since it's just one stove. The heads-up is just suggestion to let clients know during the original quote that certain manufactures have this requirement and it could present a problem for them. I've been pretty good about telling them, but forgot on this job and here we are again. I don't know why some manufacturers can't seem to design an igniter that doesn't need a dedicated circuit, but I think I'll finally get off my behind and make a list of those that do not require it so I can hand the list to clients on the initial bid walk through.
 
Also some gas stoves require a separate circuit because they have convection cooking built into them. With technology changing so rapidly you really need to know up front what appliances people would be using. I once ran a 20 amp 120 volt circuit for a microwave/hood and when it came in it required a 240 volt, 30 amp circuit.
 
sfav8r said:
I thought I would throw this out since it has reared its ugly head again. For reasons I still don't understand some manufacturers (Wolfe for example) are listing a requirement for a DEDICATED circuit for their stove igniters. Yes, of course everyone would love to have everything on a dedicated circuit, but seriously a stove igniter? In some cases a new circuit isn't such a big deal. On a project we did awhile back it meant running conduit from 6 condos down 1-3 stories to the electrical panels in the alley. It was so cost prohibitive that I called Wolfe and asked for something in writing eliminating the requirement so that the inspector would be OK and also for the clients warranty. They said that the igniters are "very sophisticated" and should be on a dedicated circuit. In that case the customer opted to eat the restocking fee and purchase different appliances. The job we're on currently (again Wolfe) the client has just agreed to run a new circuit since it's just one stove. The heads-up is just suggestion to let clients know during the original quote that certain manufactures have this requirement and it could present a problem for them. I've been pretty good about telling them, but forgot on this job and here we are again. I don't know why some manufacturers can't seem to design an igniter that doesn't need a dedicated circuit, but I think I'll finally get off my behind and make a list of those that do not require it so I can hand the list to clients on the initial bid walk through.
Click to expand...

Lets say you never read the book that came with the stove and plugged it into an outlet not on a dedicated circuit, what would happen?
It's very rare I ever get all appliance specs in advance, it would be great to though.
 
If this becomes a trend with more than just range igniters, I'd probably start running 2 12/3 vs 2 12/2 for the SABCs in the kitchen. If need be, you could have 2 extra dedicated circuits in a pinch with minimal extra labor or materials.

"Dedicated" is not in the NEC, and as far as a mfg spec, it's meaningless imo. No way I would run an individual branch circuit for a 2A max igniter. If they were truly "very sophisticated", they would work fine on the regular SABC.

Here is the Wolfe range top instructions:

"This appliance must be installed in accordance with
National Electrical Codes, as well as all state, municipal
and local codes. The correct voltage, frequency and
amperage must be supplied to the appliance from a dedicated,
grounded circuit which is protected by a properly
sized circuit breaker or time delay fuse. The proper
voltage, frequency, and amperage ratings are listed on the
product rating plate."

However, later in the same instructions:

"The Wolf gas rangetop requires a 110/120 V AC, 50/60 Hz
electrical supply to operate the electronic ignition system.
The service should have its own 15 amp circuit breaker. A
ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) is not recommended
and may cause interruption of operation."

Should =/= must have. Since the instructions say "should", I contend you can install it with a 'dedicated' 15A breaker, or on one of the 20A SABC.

http://www.subzero-wolf.com/~/media...ducts/wolf/gas rangetops/gas rangetops ig.pdf
 
In my 33+ years in the trade I have never had an inspector ask for a copy of the installation instruction of an appliance. Frequently we will install a 15 amp circuit for the hood and cooktop igniter. Gas ranges usually get a dedicated circuit since we have no idea what all might be connected inside the range.
 
JFletcher said:
If this becomes a trend with more than just range igniters, I'd probably start running 2 12/3 vs 2 12/2 for the SABCs in the kitchen. If need be, you could have 2 extra dedicated circuits in a pinch with minimal extra labor or materials.

"Dedicated" is not in the NEC, and as far as a mfg spec, it's meaningless imo. No way I would run an individual branch circuit for a 2A max igniter. If they were truly "very sophisticated", they would work fine on the regular SABC.

Here is the Wolfe range top instructions:

"This appliance must be installed in accordance with
National Electrical Codes, as well as all state, municipal
and local codes. The correct voltage, frequency and
amperage must be supplied to the appliance from a dedicated,
grounded circuit which is protected by a properly
sized circuit breaker or time delay fuse. The proper
voltage, frequency, and amperage ratings are listed on the
product rating plate."

However, later in the same instructions:

"The Wolf gas rangetop requires a 110/120 V AC, 50/60 Hz
electrical supply to operate the electronic ignition system.
The service should have its own 15 amp circuit breaker. A
ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) is not recommended
and may cause interruption of operation."

Should =/= must have. Since the instructions say "should", I contend you can install it with a 'dedicated' 15A breaker, or on one of the 20A SABC.

http://www.subzero-wolf.com/~/media...ducts/wolf/gas rangetops/gas rangetops ig.pdf
Click to expand...

IMO the word "should" gives you the right to install the code minimum which would allow it on with any SABC. {210.52(B)(2)Ex.2}
 
infinity said:
IMO the word "should" gives you the right to install the code minimum which would allow it on with any SABC. {210.52(B)(2)Ex.2}
Click to expand...

It doesn't carry near the power that "shall" does.
Should: recommended but you don't really have to.
Shall: You have to do it.
 
JFletcher said:
"This appliance must be installed in accordance with
National Electrical Codes, as well as all state, municipal
and local codes. The correct voltage, frequency and
amperage must be supplied to the appliance from a dedicated,
grounded circuit which is protected by a properly
sized circuit breaker or time delay fuse.
Click to expand...
However, later in the same instructions:

"The Wolf gas range top requires a 110/120 V AC, 50/60 Hz
electrical supply to operate the electronic ignition system.
The service should have its own 15 amp circuit breaker. A
ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) is not recommended
and may cause interruption of operation."
Click to expand...
The sad part of this is that if any fault should occur or the igniters fail, the mfr. can always say "you didn't run a dedicated circuit". When people stop buying this product they'll change the design of the cook-top igniters. I can't imagine any cook-top being that much more superior to others that it would justify spending an exorbitant amount of money on a dedicated circuit installation as in the OP's case.
 
goldstar said:
The sad part of this is that if any fault should occur or the igniters fail, the mfr. can always say "you didn't run a dedicated circuit". When people stop buying this product they'll change the design of the cook-top igniters. I can't imagine any cook-top being that much more superior to others that it would justify spending an exorbitant amount of money on a dedicated circuit installation as in the OP's case.
Click to expand...

If they say "you didn't run a dedicated circuit" you can just say "you didn't tell me I had to run a dedicated circuit. All you said was it 'the service should have it's own 15A breaker.'

As an afterthought, the manuf. instruction there sounds like it was written by an amature. Does 'Wolf' have the NEC required listing, such as UL?

Also the dedicated circuit doesn't make clear, could be construed to mean a dedicated small appliance circuit.
 
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curt swartz said:
In my 33+ years in the trade I have never had an inspector ask for a copy of the installation instruction of an appliance. Frequently we will install a 15 amp circuit for the hood and cooktop igniter. Gas ranges usually get a dedicated circuit since we have no idea what all might be connected inside the range.
Click to expand...


I recently had an inspector call us on a range hood cord not being listed for the hood. It was one of those cheap non vented hoods. We installed the hood and our standard three prong appliance cord (same cord that goes on dishwashers and disposals) on like we've done for years.

He dug through the book for the hood and found it required its own Whirlpool cord, which looked identical to the one we had on there, except it cost $30.00 instead of $3.00 and you had to order it off the interwebs.
 
JoeyD74 said:
Lets say you never read the book that came with the stove and plugged it into an outlet not on a dedicated circuit, what would happen?
It's very rare I ever get all appliance specs in advance, it would be great to though.
Click to expand...
Apparently some inspectors do read them, even if they are not readily available at the inspection location.

curt swartz said:
In my 33+ years in the trade I have never had an inspector ask for a copy of the installation instruction of an appliance.
Click to expand...
Me neither -though I only have about 29 years in the trade.

goldstar said:
The sad part of this is that if any fault should occur or the igniters fail, the mfr. can always say "you didn't run a dedicated circuit". When people stop buying this product they'll change the design of the cook-top igniters. I can't imagine any cook-top being that much more superior to others that it would justify spending an exorbitant amount of money on a dedicated circuit installation as in the OP's case.
Click to expand...
True it is an out on warranty issues. I doubt those that want a Wolfe appliance will stop buying them for installation instruction reasons. Some will never know there was such issues either.

The ones that are absolutgely not willing to pay for an additional branch circuit, extra AFCI, or even GFCI if required, are not buying high end appliances in general.
 
infinity said:
Also some gas stoves require a separate circuit because they have convection cooking built into them. With technology changing so rapidly you really need to know up front what appliances people would be using. I once ran a 20 amp 120 volt circuit for a microwave/hood and when it came in it required a 240 volt, 30 amp circuit.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. I have started emailing the MARKETING department of the manufacturers who do this and politely and simply explaining the implication of theses seemingly over zealous requirements. Maybe they will consider something other than the warranty CYA if the right people are part of the process.
 
newservice said:
If they say "you didn't run a dedicated circuit" you can just say "you didn't tell me I had to run a dedicated circuit. All you said was it 'the service should have it's own 15A breaker.'

As an afterthought, the manuf. instruction there sounds like it was written by an amature. Does 'Wolf' have the NEC required listing, such as UL?

Also the dedicated circuit doesn't make clear, could be construed to mean a dedicated small appliance circuit.
Click to expand...

and how will they know you didnt run an individual branch circuit? Wolfe sends out appliance repair tech who turns off the breaker and starts looking for other things w/o power? lol.

The Wolfe instructions are contrary to themselves. The first part I linked reads 'must be supplied by a dedicated circuit', later in the same manual it reads "should". Another reason why 110.3(B) needs an exception, tho I dont think I have the eloquence, clout, and/or muscle to get such an exception into the 2020 NEC.
 
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