Leviton Breaker firmware update

[steven765]

Probably more a PSA, but just spoke with Leviton about nuisance trips on AFCI's. If you're getting them, contact their warranty team. The breaker records the characteristics of the trip. They'll request the breaker back and send back to you with update firmware to ignore the appliance that's causing the trip.

This also confirms what my friends and I suspected. If you're using the smart connected breakers they can tell what appliances you have installed as they have the electrical profile of each device. Terrifying from a data analytics perspective.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

They need to have the electrical profile of every appliance that is or has been on the market builtin to the AFCI before they are released.
Not of this should be on the EC or homeowner to fix. 100% of the costs to make this junk work should be on the AFCI manufacturer.

 

[steven765]

They need to have the electrical profile of every appliance that is or has been on the market builtin to the AFCI before they are released.
Not of this should be on the EC or homeowner to fix. 100% of the costs to make this junk work should be on the AFCI manufacturer.

100% agree, but when you can sell it as a feature, wouldn't you?

 

[K8MHZ]

They need to have the electrical profile of every appliance that is or has been on the market builtin to the AFCI before they are released.
Not of this should be on the EC or homeowner to fix. 100% of the costs to make this junk work should be on the AFCI manufacturer.

EC's should be able to bill the manufacturers for their time. Or at least sue them for it. Doing R&D work for free is not acceptable, in my book.

 

[steven765]

Doing R&D work for free is not acceptable, in my book.

Welcome to software development, Oh wait i thought you'd just add that feature for free.

 

[K8MHZ]

Welcome to software development, Oh wait i thought you'd just add that feature for free.

"That feature"

You mean making it work as it was advertised, that feature? Or is there something in the installation instructions that forewarns the installer that the device may have to be sent back to be re-programmed and to price the installation with that possibility in mind?

 

[hbiss]

100% agree, but when you can sell it as a feature, wouldn't you?

So we are supposed to go to the customer, determine the cause of the trip, remove the breaker and temporarily replace it with a spare (which will continue to trip), send the customer's breaker to the manufacturer, wait for them to return it then go back to the customer and swap the breakers?

And you expect to get paid what that is worth?

What happens if you need to do it under warranty?

-Hal

 

[ramsy]

They need to have the electrical profile of every appliance that is or has been on the market builtin to the AFCI before they are released.
Not of this should be on the EC or homeowner to fix. 100% of the costs to make this junk work should be on the AFCI manufacturer.

You've got that backwards.

AFCI's only need 1 profile for contractors.

If your helpers can't read AFCI instructions, they may not work for you.

If you don't cover help with Workmans' Comp., Unemployment, or Payroll services, and they scatter like cockroaches when the city rolls up, then AFCI's may frustrate your unskilled exploits.

 

[hbiss]

You've got that backwards.

AFCI's only need 1 profile for contractors.

If your helpers can't read AFCI instructions, they may not work for you.

If you don't cover help with Workmans' Comp., Unemployment, or Payroll services, and they scatter like cockroaches when the city rolls up, then AFCI's may frustrate your unskilled exploits.

What does any of that have to do with the topic we are talking about here??

-Hal

 

[mbrooke]

You've got that backwards.

AFCI's only need 1 profile for contractors.

If your helpers can't read AFCI instructions, they may not work for you.

If you don't cover help with Workmans' Comp., Unemployment, or Payroll services, and they scatter like cockroaches when the city rolls up, then AFCI's may frustrate your unskilled exploits.

The magnetic pickup of a breaker provides the same level of AFIC protection without tripping on normal current ripple.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You've got that backwards.

AFCI's only need 1 profile for contractors.

If your helpers can't read AFCI instructions, they may not work for you.

If you don't cover help with Workmans' Comp., Unemployment, or Payroll services, and they scatter like cockroaches when the city rolls up, then AFCI's may frustrate your unskilled exploits.

AFCIs trip on listed and properly operating equipment and that is not the fault of either the EC or of the appliance manufacturer. It is the fault of the AFCI manufacturers and any costs of making the AFCI work should be on the AFCI manufacturer. It is not the responsibility of the the EC, the appliance manufacturer or the property owner.

 

[winnie]

I have to wonder...if an 'arc signature' is detected which causes what appears to be a 'false trip' there are several possibilities:

1) There is no arc at all, but something about the load looks like arcing.
2) There is actual arcing in the load, but it is properly controlled and designed for, eg. a switch or brush motor
3) There is actual series arcing in the circuit, but at a low level which is not notices by the user.

I recall in another thread about nuisance tripping of AFCIs, a poster related that when they were called out for AFCI issues (AFCI tripping when contractor's saws were used) they would tighten the screws in the receptacles and cord caps, and the AFCIs would stop tripping.

I wonder how many of the 'false arc signatures' that get programmed into the AFCI will actually be _real_ wiring flaws which were not properly addressed.

-Jon

 

[hbiss]

I recall in another thread about nuisance tripping of AFCIs, a poster related that when they were called out for AFCI issues (AFCI tripping when contractor's saws were used) they would tighten the screws in the receptacles and cord caps, and the AFCIs would stop tripping.

I would believe that when I see it.

I wonder how many of the 'false arc signatures' that get programmed into the AFCI will actually be _real_ wiring flaws which were not properly addressed.

It's impossible to predict every "arc signature" which is why these things are useless. So now it looks like they are attempting a different approach, they are trying to "white list" friendly arcing by apparently getting AFCIs returned that nuisance trip so that they can do forensic analysis and see what they are tripping on. (They may have changed the design to include some memory to make that possible.)

I don't see this as having a snowball in hell of succeeding either.

-Hal

 

[VirutalElectrician]

I thought Leviton breakers were able to update the firmware in the field using the LDATA datalink device?

Edit: Yes, you can update the firmware in the field:

You'll need the LDATA link device, they're about $150. But not sure why you would install a Leviton panel without one, that's the whole purpose of the panel....

How do you remotely update firmware with Leviton’s smart circuit breakers? Firmware is software that is utilized by small microcontrollers or processors inside of hardware devices and is usually designed for specific purposes. In the case of a circuit breaker with electronics (AFCI, GFCI, AFCI/GFCI), firmware is embedded to sense electrical signals and act if a potentially unsafe situation—like a ground fault or arc fault—is detected. With Leviton smart circuit breakers, additional firmware is embedded to enable metering and communication capabilities. From time to time, Leviton may push firmware updates to the breaker to improve communication functionality or fix minor bugs, similar to how a smart phone operates. These kinds of updates do not require user intervention. In addition, Leviton’s smart AFCI and AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers have the capability to capture an arc’s “signature” (waveform) during an arc fault trip event. This signature can be transmitted to the Leviton cloud, so we can analyze the arc for future improvements. In one example, a homeowner reports an AFCI trip to their local electrician. The electrician should then contact Leviton Tech Support to work through all arc fault troubleshooting procedures. If it is Frequently Asked Questions The Leviton Load Center Leviton Manufacturing Co., Inc. 201 North Service Road, Melville, NY 11747-3138, 1-800-323-8920 Tech Line: 1-800-824-3005 Fax: 1-800-832-9538 www.leviton.com/loadcenter © 2019 Leviton Manufacturing Co., Inc. All rights reserved. Subject to change without notice. determined that the arc is being generated by a known source producing a safe arc, like an old miter saw, Leviton engineers can update the circuit breaker’s firmware to “mask” that arc. After it has been confirmed the new firmware meets UL requirements, Leviton can then push an update to that particular AFCI breaker. The user must turn OFF the breaker, enable the update, and turn the breaker back ON. The AFCI’s firmware has now been updated.

 

[electrofelon]

I wonder how many of the 'false arc signatures' that get programmed into the AFCI will actually be _real_ wiring flaws which were not properly addressed.

-Jon

Although I am no fan of AFCI, I believe the vast majority of AFCI trips are errors in the wiring, mostly an N-G connection somewhere or neutrals from different circuits tied together. I can literally only recall two AFCI problems in my last five to six years. One was a nail that pierced the cable and connected the neutral and ground, the other was a neutral in a can light J box that got pinched in the cover and made a N-G connection. I don't dispute that there are properly verified cases of appliances causing problems with them, but I have never came across such an appliance.

 

[gadfly56]

I would believe that when I see it.


It's impossible to predict every "arc signature" which is why these things are useless. So now it looks like they are attempting a different approach, they are trying to "white list" friendly arcing by apparently getting AFCIs returned that nuisance trip so that they can do forensic analysis and see what they are tripping on. (They may have changed the design to include some memory to make that possible.)

I don't see this as having a snowball in hell of succeeding either.

-Hal

The best part will be when they finally program a profile that is identical to that of a true arc fault as being the same as some appliance. Now, it will never trip on arc fault. So, why did we bother, again?

 

[hbiss]

You'll need the LDATA link device, they're about $150. But not sure why you would install a Leviton panel without one, that's the whole purpose of the panel....

I missed the fact that this was a Leviton breaker. Not sure why you would install a Leviton panel without the link device? I don't know anybody who would install a Leviton panel to begin with...

-Hal

 

[VirutalElectrician]

I missed the fact that this was a Leviton breaker. Not sure why you would install a Leviton panel without the link device? I don't know anybody who would install a Leviton panel to begin with...

-Hal

What do you have against Leviton panels? I haven't installed any yet, but I've been researching them quite heavily. Everyone wants home automation now, I imagine it won't be much longer before someone requests one.

I ordered a small one for the shop to setup and evaluate. I've always installed QO panels, but they haven't done any innovation in 50 years on those things.

Power monitoring, remote shut off. Lots of nice features. If only they had remote reset as well.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Although I am no fan of AFCI, I believe the vast majority of AFCI trips are errors in the wiring, mostly an N-G connection somewhere or neutrals from different circuits tied together. I can literally only recall two AFCI problems in my last five to six years. One was a nail that pierced the cable and connected the neutral and ground, the other was a neutral in a can light J box that got pinched in the cover and made a N-G connection. I don't dispute that there are properly verified cases of appliances causing problems with them, but I have never came across such an appliance.

While that would trip app of the original branch circuit and feeder type AFCIs because they all had a ground fault detection circuit. However that is not the case with the combination type AFCIs as there are at least two brands of combination (series and parallel arcs) that do not have any type of ground fault detection circuit.

 

[hbiss]

What do you have against Leviton panels? I haven't installed any yet, but I've been researching them quite heavily. Everyone wants home automation now, I imagine it won't be much longer before someone requests one.

I'm not in the business of installing "boutique" equipment. Besides, Leviton needs to stick to what they do best, we don't need yet another panel line for which to carry spares, particularly from a company that has no history making panels. Not to worry, the way they are going they will be joining the Trilliant boondoggle which was from Square D, a company that knows how to make panels.


-Hal