Leviton GFCI Installation correction

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avina

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On my last inspection I get a correction about installing a GCFI in a 4s box that contain 5 wires on it. one neutral and two hot that pass thru plus the neutral and hot for the GFCI. The inspector is based on the instructions of the manufacturer that on article # 6 Identify cables/wires said: DO NOT install the GFCI in an electrical box containing more than four wires...... I understand that in term of connection I have to have maximum four wires connected on the GFCI two line, two load. but according to the space on the box I am correct. Do anyone have this experience?
 
I would use a different brand GFCI.

The inspector may be over the top but they have 110.3(B) on their side.

Sounds like Leviton screwd up the directions.
 
This is what is in the Leviton GFCI instructions.

6. Identify cables/wires
Important:
DO NOT install the GFCI receptacle in an
electrical box containing (a) more than four (4)
wires (not including the grounding wires) or
(b) cables with more than two (2) wires (not
including the grounding wire). Contact a
qualified electrician if either (a) or (b) are true.



I am a qualified electrician, not a DIY homeowner and I've installed thousands GFCI receptacles in outlet boxes containing more than 4 wires or two cables. I'm going to contact Leviton and ask them to revise their instructions unless they have some reason besides "a DIY can't determine how to wire it properly".


 
I think this is a manufacturers practice to allow for more heat dissipation to cover their butts. I also have ignored and have not had issues with it but in general I do not install more than 2 cables. Also if I have a 2 gang box that would still be a violation as written. The manufacturer is not taking into consideration the box size. I always use 22 cu. in boxes while others may use 18 cu. in
 
A question that I have is whether the licensed electrician is expected to rewire the box to comply, or just to correctly evaluate the box with more wires to be sure that it complies with NEC fill rules.
They may just be saying that beyond four wires they do not trust a DIYer to be able to evaluate the situation correctly, whether it is base on larger boc, wires not counted, or otherwise.
My take is that if an electrician says it is compliant, then the manufacturer's instructions have been complied with and the inspector has no grounds on which to object.
Unless the electrician calculated wrong....
 
GoldDigger said:
They may just be saying that beyond four wires they do not trust a DIYer to be able to evaluate the situation correctly, whether it is base on larger boc, wires not counted, or otherwise.
My take is that if an electrician says it is compliant, then the manufacturer's instructions have been complied with and the inspector has no grounds on which to object.
Unless the electrician calculated wrong....
Click to expand...

That's PROBABLY what the mfr's tech writer meant to say, but not what he or she actually said, perhaps being unaware of 110.3(B). Furthermore, if its "listing and labeling" do not specifically prohibit your use (i.e., in a box with more than 4 conductors), then it should be allowed, and its documentation should not contradict that.

The instructions are rather clearly defective to the extent they appear to prohibit ANYONE from installing the GFCI if you have had to "contact a qualified electrician."
 
So did the inspector make you remove the trim plate and pull out the GFI so he could see how many wires were in the box. What a Barney Fife. I mean it's great that he was being thorough, but it seems like a weak reason to flag it. I agree with just using a different manufacturer.
 
iwire said:
I would use a different brand GFCI.

The inspector may be over the top but they have 110.3(B) on their side.

Sounds like Leviton screwd up the directions.
Click to expand...


I think all the manufactures screwed up. Here is P&S gfci instructions and the suck. Interesting thing is that they talk about 4-6 wires but I believe there they are counting the equipment grounding conductor since that corresponds to the diagram cited

Identify cables/wires
IMPORTANT:
Do not install the GFCI receptacle in anelectrical box containing (a) more than4 wires (not including the ground wires)or (b) cables with more than two wires(not including the ground wire). Contacta qualified electrician if either (a) or(b) is true.? If you are replacing an old receptacle,pull it out of the electrical boxwithout disconnecting the wires.? If you see one cable (2-3 wires), it isthe LINE cable. The receptacle isprobably in position C (see diagramto the right). Remove the receptacleand go to step 7A.? If you see two cables (4-6 wires), thereceptacle is probably in position A orB (see diagram to the right). Followsteps a-e of the procedure tothe right.
Click to expand...
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I think this is a manufacturers practice to allow for more heat dissipation to cover their butts. I also have ignored and have not had issues with it but in general I do not install more than 2 cables. Also if I have a 2 gang box that would still be a violation as written. The manufacturer is not taking into consideration the box size. I always use 22 cu. in boxes while others may use 18 cu. in
Click to expand...


Heat dissipation , you are kidding me. Heat dissipation I will bet has absolutely nothing to do with this.
This is about a non expert in the field writing instructions. This is about wire fill that the text writer does not know how to explain and nothing else.
 
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Sierrasparky said:
Dennis Alwon said:
I think this is a manufacturers practice to allow for more heat dissipation to cover their butts. I also have ignored and have not had issues with it but in general I do not install more than 2 cables. Also if I have a 2 gang box that would still be a violation as written. The manufacturer is not taking into consideration the box size. I always use 22 cu. in boxes while others may use 18 cu. in[/QUOTE


Heat dissipation , you are kidding me. Heat dissipation I will bet has absolutely nothing to do with this.
This is about a non expert in the field writing instructions. This is about wire fill that the text writer does not know how to explain and nothing else.
Click to expand...

Orange & Blue both claim that they hire Master Electricians for electrical departments. You'd think Levition could do the same or have someone who understood NEC code.
Click to expand...
 
mjf said:
This is what is in the Leviton GFCI instructions.

6. Identify cables/wires
Important:
DO NOT install the GFCI receptacle in an
electrical box containing (a) more than four (4)
wires (not including the grounding wires) or
(b) cables with more than two (2) wires (not
including the grounding wire). Contact a
qualified electrician if either (a) or (b) are true.



I am a qualified electrician, not a DIY homeowner and I've installed thousands GFCI receptacles in outlet boxes containing more than 4 wires or two cables. I'm going to contact Leviton and ask them to revise their instructions unless they have some reason besides "a DIY can't determine how to wire it properly".
Click to expand...
Ok sometimes we get people complaining about all caps and that it is considered shouting, does small text like that mean you are whispering?



Sierrasparky said:
Dennis Alwon said:
I think this is a manufacturers practice to allow for more heat dissipation to cover their butts. I also have ignored and have not had issues with it but in general I do not install more than 2 cables. Also if I have a 2 gang box that would still be a violation as written. The manufacturer is not taking into consideration the box size. I always use 22 cu. in boxes while others may use 18 cu. in[/QUOTE


Heat dissipation , you are kidding me. Heat dissipation I will bet has absolutely nothing to do with this.
This is about a non expert in the field writing instructions. This is about wire fill that the text writer does not know how to explain and nothing else.
Click to expand...
Actually I see it as them stating: if there are more then 4 wires - hire someone that knows what they are doing. In reality they should change it to : if there are any wires at all - hire a professional:)

I have to ask if we can't have more then 4 conductors (other then EGC's) on the device why the heck do they have the ability for the terminations to accept 2 conductors per terminal?
Click to expand...
 
Sierrasparky said:
This is about a non expert in the field writing instructions. This is about wire fill that the text writer does not know how to explain and nothing else.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup:

I absolutely agree. But, rather than Leviton or P&S publishing installation instructions written by a non-expert, it is more a deliberate attempt to cover their axx, knowing full well that a large part of their market is the non-electrician do-it-yourselfer. When the Customer Service person is contacted, and as a DIYer tries to troubleshoot a flawed (non-Code) installation, all the Customer Service technician has to ask is whether the instructions were followed to drive the DIYer away and to a capable electrician.

Whether the DIYer does get an electrician is ultimately immaterial, as, legally, the manufacturer has absolved themselves of complicity in the installation.

CYA. Nothing more.
 
al hildenbrand said:
:thumbsup:

I absolutely agree. But, rather than Leviton or P&S publishing installation instructions written by a non-expert, it is more a deliberate attempt to cover their axx, knowing full well that a large part of their market is the non-electrician do-it-yourselfer. When the Customer Service person is contacted, and as a DIYer tries to troubleshoot a flawed (non-Code) installation, all the Customer Service technician has to ask is whether the instructions were followed to drive the DIYer away and to a capable electrician.

Whether the DIYer does get an electrician is ultimately immaterial, as, legally, the manufacturer has absolved themselves of complicity in the installation.

CYA. Nothing more.
Click to expand...

I looked at the Pass /Seymor and they are exactly the same all but the picture of the device itself. P&S has the same section 6 discussed here.

It could be just that the writer was concerning with only a standard 18 cub in box. or those old GEM boxes. 16 cu/in
 
This is what I sent to Leviton:

Below is quoted from your GFCI receptacle installation instructions:

6. Identify cables/wires Important: DO NOT install the GFCI receptacle in an electrical box containing (a) more than four (4) wires (not including the grounding wires) or (b) cables with more than two (2) wires (not including the grounding wire). Contact a qualified electrician if either (a) or (b) are true.

I am a qualified electrician and the NEC tells me that I must follow all manufacturers instructions.
The instructions above seem to be geared to an individual that has no business opening up a device box in the first place.
As a qualified electrician, I can easily determine how to wire your receptacle even when more cables/wires are present. I can also easily determine box fill capacities for any given outlet box.

The directions you give would prohibit me from installing your GFCI receptacle in many instances where it would otherwise be code compliant.
As an example, according to your instructions, I'm not able to install a toggle switch and your GFCI next to each other in a 2-gang outlet box. Please explain to me why I am limited in my installations in such a way.

Regards,
Mike Friedman
MJF ELECTRIC



This is the response I received:
Hi Michael,

The instruction was written to prevent over populating the screw connection on the GFCI terminals to avoid creating a hazardous condition created by someone who is a less than qualified electrician and not to be used as a code of law for wiring these devices. The local code or electrical ordinance in your local town or county should be used.
 
mjf said:
This is what I sent to Leviton:

Below is quoted from your GFCI receptacle installation instructions:

6. Identify cables/wires Important: DO NOT install the GFCI receptacle in an electrical box containing (a) more than four (4) wires (not including the grounding wires) or (b) cables with more than two (2) wires (not including the grounding wire). Contact a qualified electrician if either (a) or (b) are true.

I am a qualified electrician and the NEC tells me that I must follow all manufacturers instructions.
The instructions above seem to be geared to an individual that has no business opening up a device box in the first place.
As a qualified electrician, I can easily determine how to wire your receptacle even when more cables/wires are present. I can also easily determine box fill capacities for any given outlet box.

The directions you give would prohibit me from installing your GFCI receptacle in many instances where it would otherwise be code compliant.
As an example, according to your instructions, I'm not able to install a toggle switch and your GFCI next to each other in a 2-gang outlet box. Please explain to me why I am limited in my installations in such a way.

Regards,
Mike Friedman
MJF ELECTRIC



This is the response I received:
Hi Michael,

The instruction was written to prevent over populating the screw connection on the GFCI terminals to avoid creating a hazardous condition created by someone who is a less than qualified electrician and not to be used as a code of law for wiring these devices. The local code or electrical ordinance in your local town or county should be used.
Click to expand...

What a corporate jerk. I hope you replied in a tasteful manner that as per the code we must follow the manufacturer directions. Telling us that the instructions are just a guide and not to be code unravels the code pertaining to mfg directions. This will give every person electrician or handyman the ability to say " those were suggestive directions" and thus do not need to be adhered to.
 
I found the same instructions on a off brand at the local lumber yard.

There must have been some sort of Manufactures convention on this as it is so wide spread.
 
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