Liability for late Change of contractor

[howardrichman]

I was working for a building contractor for several years, Recently, I've found out the last several jobs in a few towns, the building contractor decided to hire another electrician, but didn't inform me cause of some disagreements on work done and money. I wouldn't have known if I hadn't got a call from one of the towns I sealed a permit for, that an inspection was performed. Apon this knowledge, I checked out other towns I sealed for, and others where between inspections. I proceded to canceling any open permits. My question is: If a pass- final electric inspection has been issued, is it too late to demand my name taken off any and all of those permits? I caught several permits still open between inspections, and able to cancel w/ a signed/ sealed letter to that town. If the final inspections have been performed, is it too late, and I'm responsible and liable for another individuals work? If not what to do?


HR...

 

[infinity]

I wouldn't expect much help on the local level for work that has been signed, sealed and passed a final but you could check with the building official in the cities/towns where this has happened to see if they can provide any type of remedy. You could also report the GC to the DCA to create a paper trail of what has transpired. This type of fraud is highly prevalent here in NJ. Maybe Rick Napier will chime in or you can send him a PM. I've attended one of his CEU classes and he's highly knowledgeable about how things are done here in NJ.

 

[mgookin]

I was working for a building contractor for several years, Recently, I've found out the last several jobs in a few towns, the building contractor decided to hire another electrician, but didn't inform me cause of some disagreements on work done and money. I wouldn't have known if I hadn't got a call from one of the towns I sealed a permit for, that an inspection was performed. Apon this knowledge, I checked out other towns I sealed for, and others where between inspections. I proceded to canceling any open permits. My question is: If a pass- final electric inspection has been issued, is it too late to demand my name taken off any and all of those permits? I caught several permits still open between inspections, and able to cancel w/ a signed/ sealed letter to that town. If the final inspections have been performed, is it too late, and I'm responsible and liable for another individuals work? If not what to do?


HR...

I used to deal with this from time to time. A contractor would come in saying they did not do the work under a permit they signed for. I'd have him write me a letter, I'd cancel his permit, and tell the GC he needs to get a new subcontractor to come in and sign for a permit.

You ask about liability. Anyone can be sued at any time; that's a law school 101 question according to friends who are attorneys.

Advice: Go to the jurisdictions where you signed for permits. Ask them what permits there are under your name. Figure out which jobs you did and which jobs you did not do. Provide a letter to the Building Official saying you did not do the jobs you did not do. Keep good records of it. It happens pretty often and should not come as a surprise to anyone.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Why would you sign a permit and not keep track of when you need to perform work?

Any GC that performs work under you permit and has the nerve to call in inspection in my eyes is guilty of Fraud,
I would nail any contractor who does this.

 

[howardrichman]

Why would you sign a permit and not keep track of when you need to perform work?

Any GC that performs work under you permit and has the nerve to call in inspection in my eyes is guilty of Fraud,
I would nail any contractor who does this.

I have been working for this building contractor for a couple of years, and relations were good. I found out recently thru a phone call from a town w/ a question. if I cancel outstanding permits now, I should be in the clear.

Thanks,
HR...

 

[Sierrasparky]

maybe as long as no work was performed and no inspections done. Otherwise I would think you are still on the hook.

IF I was the AHJ I would have no reason to believe you other than a signed document from the person who did the work under your permit. Or
You would need to get a signed document from the owner and GC that you never performed the work.

In either case you are in quite a predicament.



Again if a GC who calls for inspection on another contractors permit knowing that work was never done by that permitee should loose their license.

 

[mgookin]

It's common in a building department to change subs on a permit. It happens all the time.

 

[Sierrasparky]

It's common in a building department to change subs on a permit. It happens all the time.

Changing of subs when the permit is in the name of the GC or the owner no big deal agreed.

GC doing work under a permit who is not theirs is another.


Someone needs to take written responsibility.

 

[mgookin]

Changing of subs when the permit is in the name of the GC or the owner no big deal agreed.

GC doing work under a permit who is not theirs is another.


Someone needs to take written responsibility.

There's no doubt that the GC and the new EC acted improperly. The permit should have been changed before the new EC did any work. The primary objective is to correct it. T

hen if a pattern develops action could be taken against the licenses of the parties doing the wrong; but OP says it was the end of a long business relationship. It really seems like a one time thing. One could only speculate whether it was intended and speculation gets you nowhere. Correcting the records is the proper thing to do.

 

[JFletcher]

Recently, I've found out the last several jobs in a few towns, the building contractor decided to hire another electrician, but didn't inform me cause of some disagreements on work done and money. I wouldn't have known..

If I may ask, aside from the phone call, how would you not know? GC hires you to do electrical, you draw permit, do some % of it, disagreement happens, you stop work, and, what, the whole project gets pushed back infinitely because the electrical isnt done? or did the GC jump up the timetables and have someone else do the work before you were scheduled to?

 

[growler]

I caught several permits still open between inspections, and able to cancel w/ a signed/ sealed letter to that town. If the final inspections have been performed, is it too late, and I'm responsible and liable for another individuals work?

There's no doubt that the GC and the new EC acted improperly. The permit should have been changed before the new EC did any work. The primary objective is to correct it. Then if a pattern develops action could be taken against the licenses of the parties doing the wrong. It really seems like a one time thing. One could only speculate whether it was intended and speculation gets you nowhere. Correcting the records is the proper thing to do.

It sounds to me like a pattern has already developed ( if he had to cancel several permits).


I think I would call the GC and ask what is going on and why he is not getting the proper permits.

This can be a bigger problem than just the name on the permits. To insure a job the job needs to be on your books as haveing been done by your company. Other than liability I wonder how they are covering the workman's comp. The GCs workman's comp carrier will want to know just who he paid the money to as subs and want their insurance numbers.

Anyone can sue you at anytime for anything but that also means you can sue anyone at anytime for anything.

 

[Fulthrotl]

If not what to do?


HR...

assuming that you have to pull permits in person for
all work to be done.

so, you have a list of jobs to be done. you know what
jobs you worked on, contact the cities where there are
jobs you permitted, and did no work, and void the permits.

i had a property manager do something similar on a marina
i worked on a long time ago. came in to find out someone had
been doing electrical work that i was supposed to be doing.

she was shopping prices, and decided to saddle another horse.
i pulled everything off the job, and went to void the permit.
the building inspector asked what was up, and i told him.

he went and red tagged the job, and she was given 72 hours
till he called for disconnection of power to the marina. so, she
had the new contractor pull a permit, and off they went.

 

[kwired]

I'm not an attorney, but only proof of your involvement is the permit. Can they produce any proof of payment to you or any other evidence that you did anything more then get the permit as far as liability issues?

Canceling these permits if possible is also a step putting you further away from liability, and very likely does initiate some investigation into finding out who did this work.

 

[iwire]

I am so happy I live in an area that only the EC can pull electrical permits. Permits are per job and only the EC can call for inspections.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

You cannot cancel the permit. In New Jersey the permit is owned by the property owner. What you can do is notify the construction department that you are no longer the contractor of record and that no work was performed by you. This would require the building department to reach out to have a change of contractor submitted. Otherwise the work was done by a contractor without a permit since they were not listed as the contractor. There generally is no charge for a change of contractor but there can be fines for not completing one. I would definitely do this since if there was a problem the building department wiil cite you and then it is difficult to convince them you have no resposibility. In NJ except for specific exceptions for specialized licences or the home owner on his own property the permit is taken out by the electrical contractor who signs and seals the permit but he does not have to be present when it is submitted.

 

[iwire]

In New Jersey the permit is owned by the property owner.

That sounds so nuts to me. hmy:

It is not the homeowners liability at stake.

 

[Sierrasparky]

That sounds so nuts to me. hmy:

It is not the homeowners liability at stake.

What is nuts is how cavalier some are about using someone else's permit.
A GC who changes a sub who he knows the permit is in that company , continues on with a another sub and does not change the permit knows fully what they are doing.
These guys need to face the consequences.

 

[growler]

What is nuts is how cavalier some are about using someone else's permit.
A GC who changes a sub who he knows the permit is in that company , continues on with a another sub and does not change the permit knows fully what they are doing.
These guys need to face the consequences.

And what about the EC that takes over a job and knows that he is working under someone else's permit and knows what he is doing is illegal ?

I know that I'm not allowed to go on a job that is permitted by others until we get that cleared up and there is a permit in my name (company name ). I have had both GCs and homeowners try to get me to finish a job started by others and not change the permit over but I'm not going to do it.

How do people even get a license and not know the rules of the game?

If someone were to sign my name to a permit application I think this should be considered the same as signing my name to a check, forgery. That's about the only way they could get a permit in my name without me knowing about it.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

Here when I am notified that an EC is no longer the contractor of record I stop work until a change of contractor is applied for. The advantage of having the permit owned by the property owner is it cannot be used in a contractual dispute to prevent another contractor from completing the work. Also the property owner shares resposibility for the permit so if the contractor closes shop, runs off or passed away the owner must still see that inspections and finals are done.

 

[kwired]

Here when I am notified that an EC is no longer the contractor of record I stop work until a change of contractor is applied for. The advantage of having the permit owned by the property owner is it cannot be used in a contractual dispute to prevent another contractor from completing the work. Also the property owner shares resposibility for the permit so if the contractor closes shop, runs off or passed away the owner must still see that inspections and finals are done.

Differences in different jurisdictions.

Here the EC pulls permits, exception is for homeowners doing their own work at their own primary residence.

If owner or GC fires one EC and hires another one - the second one has to pull his own permit for whatever work he does. If work is 3/4 completed already second guy may not need to spend as much in fees as the first guy did, the inspector will work with you on seeing that you submit correct fees, at first they are more concerned whether you applied period, they then look to see if you applied for and paid the correct fees for the work that was done. If they feel you are short on fees you will get a notification of what is due, keep an unpaid balance for too long and it can effect validity of your license. If you applied for 30 branch circuits but installed 32 - they are not that picky and let that kind of thing slide.

If more then one EC works on a project they certainly can each pull a permit for the work that they do. One common example may be an EC pulls a permit for power and lighting work, but a fire alarm contractor pulls their own permit for the fire alarm system. Each has the scope of their work defined in the permit application.