Liability Issue me or owner?

[AEInc.]

I have a (customer) owner of a Metal Fabricating business, who is renting a building with an existing 400a 3ph service(OH) with a Large panel inside, back to back. Square D QO plug-in with no main rated for 400 amps.


Problems:
The business owner had JOE SHMO about 6 years ago do some work for their business applications.
(1) Added (5) 3ph sub-panels from main panel on feed through lugs on bottom of main panel.

1. Feeders to sub panels are 3/0 copper.
2. No EGC to sub-panels ,used pipe as ground with no bond bushings (actually no bushings at all).
3. Most sub panels are rated for 200 amps
4. One sub-panel is rated 150 Amps with some conductors of the 3/0 cut to fit the lugs
5. Not one sub-panel has main breaker.
6. For 3 phase corded equipment, used single phase 120/240 30 amp twist locks (save money??)

I have resolved (7).
I told the customer He needs to address this problem.


I have proposed a new indoor panel Spectra Bolt-on panel 1200a ML
with Appropriate THQD breakers to protect the sub wires and/or sub panel capacity, bond bushings,etc.


Where this gets tricky is:
In the mean time I pulled the 400 amp fuses out of the outside disconnect
and put in 300s for the time being to lessen potential problems (keep in mind this system has been in operation for years) and customer does not want to put in 225 amp fuses for fear of blowing one and damaging 3/0 equipment. He will allow a load test while under load to see if the 225s can be installed. They don't make a 200 amp fuse that will fit the disconnect I am told.


If he does not accept the 225a fuses and proposal (for cost reasons only, he wants to do something about it),what recourse do I have to keep liability off my company and on the owners. I will be talking with the AHJ about this either way.

 

[satcom]

You are going to run into plenty of owners that look for the cheap way on everything they do, they want it cheap, and done right most cases they know it will be expensive to have it done right, but they play dumb thinking you will cave to get their work and do a first class hack job at a low price, but if anything goes wrong they will hold you to the fire, and claim your the professional and should have done it right.

We give guys like this the price to do it right and then walk if they start complaining about price

 

[Sierrasparky]

In my opinion you can only minimize your exposure to problem. You need to write a proposal and include your findings. If the owner rejects your solution and no reasonable solution is agreed to then you need to place the owner on notice in writing.You could always turn the job over the AHJ that will certainly take responsibility away from you, however you risk that the customer will certainly have a problem with you and this could[will] turn ugly.A disgruntled customer can ruin your reputation.

 

[AEInc.]

I will be conducting the load test tomorrow and see what he wants to do. I hope he makes the right decision.

 

[renosteinke]

This is truly a good thread for the 'business' section, as it brings up some of the things we need to know- apart from the NEC, or any building code.

The first point is to recognize that the rules in commercial leasing are completely different from any residential lease you've ever seen. In commercial leasing, for example, it's quite common for the tenant to make major alterations to the property. It's also quite common for the tenant to have complete responsibility for the maintenance of the building. The landlord's roof leaks, the tenant gets to pay for the repair.

In a similar manner, the landlord has no obligation to provide a building that is suitable for the intended tenants' activities. Ask any hair salon; nearly every one has formerly been located somewhere else, somewhere where the electrical, plumbing, and ventilation were not up to the demands of the business.

The crux of the matter is that your customer - the tenant- has a building that needs work. That means it's his responsibility to get the work done. Any agreement between him and the landlord is just that - between him and the landlord. Whosever problem it is, it's not yours.

Sure, there might be a 'remedy' in going after the unqualified person who did the work ... but that won't get anything fixed.

All you can do is .... first off ... STOP. Don't even look at things anymore without a clear agreement that you'll be paid for your 'design' time. This goes way beyond a simple courtesy call.

Assuming the customer agrees, you need to first determine what he needs. Then look at what he has. Finally, prepare a proposal as to what you can do to match his 'needs' with his building.

How you approach the topic is up to you. I suspect that the approach 'the building isn't ready for you' will be more successful than 'the last guy was a bum.' "Your evil landlord" is certainly a losing approach.

 

[petersonra]

IMO your liability for something that is already there is very low. The thing is that you will get sued if something goes wrong if you accepted so much as a nickel to work on anything even remotely related to the electrical system there. The lawyers like to add as many people as defendants as possible in the hopes of getting someone (or more likely someone's insurance company) to buy them off to avoid litigation. It is a sick system, but it is the way it is. If you want to be in business, that is just the way things are. You just cannot worry about it all that much. That is why you buy liability insurance.

I would make clear proposals about what it is you think should be done and not editorialize about the existing installation. You potentially could get sued for stating that it is substandard for instance. There is no reason to editorialize, especially in writing. It serves no purpose other than maybe for you to vent, which gains you very little.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between an installation that is not up to code (and may never have been) and something that is an actual serious and imminent hazard. The code has a bias toward design conservatism that allows for people to cheat a lot without actually creating a hazardous condition, even though it is not up to code.

My personal opinion is that by putting 300A fuses in you have basically accepted a big chunk of responsibility for this system already. I don't understand why you want to put in a 1400A panel on a 400A service just to gain some breaker space. Would it not be cheaper to add in fusible disconnects to the 3/0 feeders instead?

I think you should start with a load calculation. It seems likely that many of the subpanels are not heavily loaded. You might get by with 60 or 100A fuses on them.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

This is truly a good thread for the 'business' section, as it brings up some of the things we need to know- apart from the NEC, or any building code.

The first point is to recognize that the rules in commercial leasing are completely different from any residential lease you've ever seen. In commercial leasing, for example, it's quite common for the tenant to make major alterations to the property. It's also quite common for the tenant to have complete responsibility for the maintenance of the building. The landlord's roof leaks, the tenant gets to pay for the repair.

In a similar manner, the landlord has no obligation to provide a building that is suitable for the intended tenants' activities. Ask any hair salon; nearly every one has formerly been located somewhere else, somewhere where the electrical, plumbing, and ventilation were not up to the demands of the business.

The crux of the matter is that your customer - the tenant- has a building that needs work. That means it's his responsibility to get the work done. Any agreement between him and the landlord is just that - between him and the landlord. Whosever problem it is, it's not yours.

Sure, there might be a 'remedy' in going after the unqualified person who did the work ... but that won't get anything fixed.

All you can do is .... first off ... STOP. Don't even look at things anymore without a clear agreement that you'll be paid for your 'design' time. This goes way beyond a simple courtesy call.

Assuming the customer agrees, you need to first determine what he needs. Then look at what he has. Finally, prepare a proposal as to what you can do to match his 'needs' with his building.

How you approach the topic is up to you. I suspect that the approach 'the building isn't ready for you' will be more successful than 'the last guy was a bum.' "Your evil landlord" is certainly a losing approach.

This is the truth. As a building engineer, and the on-site rep for the property mgt. co., and the owner, we want to see what is being done, and see that it is being done correctly. The owner will want a COI naming them as co-insureds as well. Be careful on how you approach this job.

 

[AEInc.]

I did the load test on the main disconnect and found :
L1 L2 L3High leg
298 260 87

The 225A fuse band aid would not work.

I separated sub panels highest Amperage leg shown:

A 40 Amps....... Will put it on a 100A Breaker
B 60 Amps....... Will put it on a 100A Breaker
C 140 Amps..... Will set 200A Fused disconnect tapped from Main disconnect.
D 30 Amps....... Will put it on a 100A Breaker
E 50 Amps....... Will put it on a 100 A Breaker

All other loads are branch circuits from main panel,which add up to the 298A load on L1.

He can return to the 400A fuses and still have some future loads.

He has agreed to

 

[AEInc.]

These repairs.

 

[AEInc.]

Thank you all for the informative, reality check. This experience is a lesson I will not soon forget.