License Exams

[benfranklin]

I'm not sure this is the proper forum to discuss this subject, however, I would appreciate an honest discussion about what does taking the license exams prove? I have been an electrical code and theory instructor for 26 years and my students consist of 3rd and 4th year apprentices along with an occasional master electrician's exam candidate. Most are nearing the time when they will qualify to take the exam to get a state license. The license exam is two part, one being basically a code exam and the other being a so called practical exam, which years ago was meant to wean out the ringers or those who had little to no field experience. These days it is a matter of answering quesitons on a computer terminal about the state license requirements, theory, identifcation of pictures of fittings, safety and NFPA 72 the National Fire Alarm Code. The exams are completely open book. The state uses an outside national testing company to administer and proctor the exam and a candidate does not have to sit for both parts in one day, can return anytime and retake whichever portion he/she does not score a 70% or better score on.

In my moral judgement and comparing to when I obtained my licenses, I do not think these exams prove that a candidate is a qualified (minimum) electrician. I am in favor of practical testing in a wiring lab at a local vocational school along with a practical written exam that shows a candidates knowledge of theory and acceptable installation practices.

What is your opinions?

 

[iwire]

I think it proves they can find the info in the NEC and that they are not as you say 'ringers'.

I first tested in the early 80s and from everything I have heard the test are only getting harder which can only be a good for the trade.

As for a true practical wiring test I agree that would be nice but I do not see any way of implementing that.

What area of the trade would the practical be on?

Industrial work will be as foreign to a residential electrician as the other way around.

I do agree that as it is today someone can actually pass the license test but still not be a capable electrician. :shock:

I guess that is where the inspection process comes to the forefront. To protect the consumers from less then capable electricians.

 

[peter d]

I know plenty of electricians who have passed both Journeyman and Electrical Contractor/master exams who are still lacking in basic knowledge of theory and the NEC.

But as Bob says, the tests are getting harder and do a decent job of keeping the unqualified from getting a license.

It's an imperfect system, and will always be. But like anything, it's self-regulating. Those who do good work will rise to the top, and those that don't will fall to the bottom or leave the trade.

 

[benfranklin]

License Exams

Thanks for your input.

Imperfect is a fact, I understand that. I can't help believing though that the current license exam format was conceived in a similar manner to the fast food world, it makes it easy for the providers to test and correct. Can imagine giving a drivers license to someone based on a written exam? Can you imagine giving a pilot's license to someone without them demonstrating their skills? How about a surgeon's ability to operate or a lawyer's ability to argue a case? You see, I am constantly trying to improve the electrician's outlook that being one is a profession and not a job! I equate it to being a doctor or a lawyer because you have to reach a level of knowledge and competance that will stay with you for the rest of your life, despite whatever job you might end up performing. Most legislators are lawyers and in fact, Tony LaRussa, manager of the St Louis Cardinals is a lawyer. I realize I'm stretching but I have known too many electriican's who have not performed too many installations in their careers but yet carry a license. I am also amazed at the huge underground operations in construction that go on that are never cited. Guy's with journeyman's licenses running contracting businesses with employees who are also journeymen, contractors with more apprentices then journeymen in their employ! I know it exists in every profession andI know that for the most part sooner or later it catches up to them but in the mean time it is dragging the professionalism downward.

As for inspections, well I believe that most wiring inspectors want to do a good job, but, reality is, the requirements to become a wiring inspector are that you must hold a journeyman's license and know someone who will appoint you a wiring inspector. That doesn't prove a whole lot! I've taught wiring inspectors in continuing education classes who couldn't tell you the code requirments for clearance in front of a panelboard or the definition of a wet location! My friends, it is all about experience and education and it is an equation! So, I again ask that if we are using a multiple choice open test book exam to tell us the qualifications of an electrician are we missing something?

 

[lauraj]

In Oregon, our apprentices are required to have 8000 OJT hours and 900 school hours before they can take the journeyman's test. Are there different requirements in different states? Although just because someone has received all of this training doesn't guarantee that they are knowlegdable, for the most part it is a pretty good system.

I do believe that the testing should be challenging and I believe Oregon is headed in the right direction in that respect.

 

[benfranklin]

License Exams

Massachusetts requirments are 8000 hour OJT and 600 hours School after July 31, 2001 which means most of the grandfathered 300 people have gone through the system.

Problem with 8000 hour OJT is that it could all be in residential or commericial or maintenance for that matter. No stipulations as to how they are supposed to gain experience.

Yes there are differences from state to state with a lot of states not having any license provisions. My understanding is that Florida has different tier licenses in different locations. CT has interesting way of looking at it too.

 

[bdarnell]

If you can get through the application portion for the Florida Unlimited, you're worthy. Believe me.

 

[peter d]

Re: License Exams

CT has interesting way of looking at it too.

Please explain.

 

[pierre]

Benfranklin
If you do not like it, go fly a kite!!!



Sorry, I could not resist.

I think that you have seen a lot. In your 26 years, maybe you have seen it degrade as some of us have.

I think you are in a very good position to do something about it though. As an instructor you can make sure that as many peope who come before you learn as much as possible. This way maybe in a small way you can make a difference... now train others to do the same and a "mole hill" may become a "mountain"

 

[tonyi]

FWIW - real life is "open book"...if people bother to look things up.

I certainly don't memorize the whole box fill chart, just the most commonly used for common conductor sizes.

 

[dlhoule]

I certainly don't memorize the whole box fill chart, just the most commonly used for common conductor sizes.

You show me someone who claims to be an expert on the entire NEC and I'll show you someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. I don't think it is practical but I sometimes think the best was to license would be for the various areas; such as hospitals, schools, hazardous locations; industrial, residential and so on.

 

[sonny1957]

Licensing Fairness and comment regarding unregulated low level guys...

Licensing Fairness and comment regarding unregulated low level guys...

Ben...Here is an opinion...These tests prove someone is good at taking tests...Some guys have talent for doing that and some don't....There are test prep courses that guys can take and if they have this talent they can be successful to the master level without even any work experience...even though a lot of jurisdictions will require so many thousands of hours experience most times this is never checked...it is just a formality...Test results is the determining factor....Unfortunately there is no easy answer...I am an IBEW member...The IBEW in some locals have an evaluation test used as an admissions tool...It is hands on but can be very unfair.... In my local's case it is entirely commercial while at the same time we are in the biggest industrial market place in the US....The industrial guys would find difficulty on this commercial test while at the same time the commercial guys would have problems on an industrial test...I think there really does need to be an exam that combines hands-on (commercial-industrial-residential) and code knowlege for licensing requirement...Unfortunately it would be really difficult to do and be fair to everyone concerned...Anything though would be an improvement over what is out there at present...A much bigger issue though is the need to regulate the large numbers of unqualified low level guys on these jobs that have little to no electrical experience at all...This issue just really has affect on all of us...and needs to be focused on every bit as much as license testing...All this effort goes into regulating a journeyman and yet thousands of non qualified electrical workers are out there making our work place unsafe and unprofessional. Politics are powerful and create a diffiult environment for qualified journeymen...Probably most of us appreciate excellence in our trade as we make a living at this. As long as jobs can be loaded up with non regulated low level people who are doing such a large percentage of the actual work, worrying about licensing of Journeyman and Masters is a minor issue.


Sonny Felts,

TX State Master Electrician
IBEW Local 716
Houston, TX

 

[dlhoule]

Thanks for your input.

Imperfect is a fact, I understand that. I can't help believing though that the current license exam format was conceived in a similar manner to the fast food world, it makes it easy for the providers to test and correct. Can imagine giving a drivers license to someone based on a written exam? Can you imagine giving a pilot's license to someone without them demonstrating their skills? How about a surgeon's ability to operate or a lawyer's ability to argue a case? You see,

I am constantly trying to improve the electrician's outlook that being one is a profession and not a job! I equate it to being a doctor or a lawyer

because you have to reach a level of knowledge and competance that will stay with you for the rest of your life, despite whatever job you might end up performing. Most legislators are lawyers and in fact, Tony LaRussa, manager of the St Louis Cardinals is a lawyer. I realize I'm stretching but I have known too many electriican's who have not performed too many installations in their careers but yet carry a license. I am also amazed at the huge underground operations in construction that go on that are never cited. Guy's with journeyman's licenses running contracting businesses with employees who are also journeymen, contractors with more apprentices then journeymen in their employ! I know it exists in every profession andI know that for the most part sooner or later it catches up to them but in the mean time it is dragging the professionalism downward.

As for inspections, well I believe that most wiring inspectors want to do a good job, but, reality is, the requirements to become a wiring inspector are that you must hold a journeyman's license and know someone who will appoint you a wiring inspector. That doesn't prove a whole lot! I've taught wiring inspectors in continuing education classes who couldn't tell you the code requirments for clearance in front of a panelboard or the definition of a wet location! My friends, it is all about experience and education and it is an equation! So, I again ask that if we are using a multiple choice open test book exam to tell us the qualifications of an electrician are we missing something?

Ben, If you are going to compare us to lawyer's, you and I are not going to get along very well.

 

[Shockedby277v]

Don't make that test harder till I'm done taking mine Tuesday!

 

[haskindm]

While the licensing system may be imperfect, I am much more concerned about the work that is done by unlicensed, uninsured, handyman, homeowners, and other do-it-yourselfers. I have served on our county electrical board for 15-years and we rarely receive complaints regarding licensed electricians. The few complaints we do receive usually end up as a civil dispute over charges and payment for a job. We get numerous complaints about unlicensed people doing poor work. We also get many complaints about work that was done by a previous homeowner when the property is sold. While there may be room for improvement in the licensing/testing process - my experience has been that those that have gone to the trouble of obtaining a license are for the most part doing high quality work. I am convinced that (at least in this area) on a dollar value basis, 50% of the electrical work that is performed is done by unlicensed people and is never inspected. Almost every electrical helper, apprentice, and journeyman is doing "side work" along with every do-it-yourselfer that can figure out how to twist two wires together. That is the real problem in our industry, not the fact that there is no practical portion of the examination. For the most part, a thorough understanding of the NEC will result in installations that are safe. A practical exam would show that the prospective electrician can also do the work efficiently. The market will take care of that. If you can't work efficiently you will soon find another profession.

 

[dlhoule]

Don't make that test harder till I'm done taking mine Tuesday!

So how do you think you did on your test. You should have results back in about 2 weeks. I hope you breezed right through it.

 

[Shockedby277v]

Next tuesday =) Sorry should have said that

 

[cpal]

I'm coming a little late to this party but I have some perpherial knowlege of the testing procedue in Mass. and it is not a cake walk by any means. This is not to diminish the rigors of other states ( I have no experince other than MA) I can not say that an open book test will filter out all who do not deserve, nor do I believe that our system is the do all to end all, but I have many examples of failures and achivers and in my opinions those that succeed (hard work study etc.) have adaquate knowlege and deserve to gain our certificate B and A .

The first thing I was told when I passed my journeymens test was congratualtions now you start to learn all over again. actually it hasn't stopped for the past 36 years.

Don't be too hard on the kids everybody has an equal opportunity to fail.

Charlie

 

[dlhoule]

The first thing I was told when I passed my journeymens test was congratualtions now you start to learn all over again. actually it hasn't stopped for the past 36 years.

Charlie, you have at least learned enough not to have killed yourself. I guess I'll have to keep on learning too.

Shockedby277v, all you'll breeze right through it. One of my guys had a passing score of 99%. He is a pretty sharp fella, hard worker, good student, and studied in all the right areas. He must have done 20 different practice tests.

 

[bkludecke]

If you really want a laugh take a look at California, we are finally beginning the long overdue process of requiring electricians to be certified by the state. The overall quality of our electricians is mediocre. The best thing I can see about our new program is the requirement for continued edcation. C.E.U.s are probably the best chance the industry has of really improving ourselves (this goes for electicians, inspectors and instructors alike).

BOB ON THE LEFT COAST