Licensing in CA (From Another Thread)

[tyha]

the reason i think none of us gets paid enough for what we do is because our trade will always have these cut throat, fly by night start up companies that knock the bottom out of all their prices because they dont have a clue what they are doing and when they land a few of these jobs at 50% less then everyone else the loss catches up with them and they go out of business but there is 2 more new idiots that slide right in and take thier place. i am a serious advocate and pursuer of more stringent laws and procedures for obtaining electrical licensing. i think we all need to make it a point to try and do what we can to stop this kind of business.

 

[crossman]

How is it that all the oil companies charge the same thing for a gallon of gas? Seems like some kind of agreement or price-fixing ya know. How come electricians don't band together and insist to be paid a proper wage?

 

[HaskinsElectric]

The Law Of Unintended Consequences.

The Law Of Unintended Consequences.

i am a serious advocate and pursuer of more stringent laws and procedures for obtaining electrical licensing. i think we all need to make it a point to try and do what we can to stop this kind of business.

I too am in favor of more stringent licensing, but never forget the law of unintended consequences. In California you need a license from the state to be an Electrical Contractor, that's not news. But recently they passed a law that required electricians to pass a test administered by the state to earn state certification.

Now these Certified Electricians are advertising for work in local papers and Internet sites and competing against Electrical Contractors. The public does not know the difference between a "State Certified Electrician" and a "Electrical Contractor". The public views their certification as the state certifying their competence. I see 2 certified electricians advertising for work for every licensed electrical contractor.

So the state claimed that in the interest of public safety, electricians should be certified, but what has actually happed is they created a massive new industry that is now in competing against licensed electrical contractors. The public doesn't know the difference nor do they care, they just want cheap prices and now electrical contractors are in competition with their own workforce.

The Law Of Unintended Consequences.

 

[jrannis]

How is it that all the oil companies charge the same thing for a gallon of gas? Seems like some kind of agreement or price-fixing ya know. How come electricians don't band together and insist to be paid a proper wage?

They have been doing that for over 100 years!
We just cant talk about it here.

 

[jrannis]

I too am in favor of more stringent licensing, but never forget the law of unintended consequences. In California you need a license from the state to be an Electrical Contractor, that's not news. But recently they passed a law that required electricians to pass a test administered by the state to earn state certification.

Now these Certified Electricians are advertising for work in local papers and Internet sites and competing against Electrical Contractors. The public does not know the difference between a "State Certified Electrician" and a "Electrical Contractor". The public views their certification as the state certifying their competence. I see 2 certified electricians advertising for work for every licensed electrical contractor.

So the state claimed that in the interest of public safety, electricians should be certified, but what has actually happed is they created a massive new industry that is now in competing against licensed electrical contractors. The public doesn't know the difference nor do they care, they just want cheap prices and now electrical contractors are in competition with their own workforce.

The Law Of Unintended Consequences.

Here in Florida, you cant advertise as an electrician unless you include your state or county contractor license # in the ad. It is an arrestable offense.
They used to perform sting operations by calling out unlicensed people to come out for service calls and estimates.

 

[chris kennedy]

They used to perform sting operations by calling out unlicensed people to come out for service calls and estimates.

I remember that. I used to get a kick out of the evening news.

 

[emahler]

I'm sure thats going to happen real soon. :roll:

in all honesty...it could happen tomorrow if guys would wake up and get smart...

 

[emahler]

the reason i think none of us gets paid enough for what we do is because our trade will always have these cut throat, fly by night start up companies that knock the bottom out of all their prices because they dont have a clue what they are doing and when they land a few of these jobs at 50% less then everyone else the loss catches up with them and they go out of business but there is 2 more new idiots that slide right in and take thier place. i am a serious advocate and pursuer of more stringent laws and procedures for obtaining electrical licensing. i think we all need to make it a point to try and do what we can to stop this kind of business.

it's also the guy who's been in business for 40 yrs (he's no fly by nite operation) but he bought his house for $50,000, in an area where the average starter home these days is $300,000....and charges the same rates as he did in 1970 (because he has the same expenses he had in 1970) his truck is 15 yrs old, still works out of his house (which is paid off)...etc...they hurt more than the upstart because the public looks at this guy and says "he's been around for 40 yrs at those prices, you must be ripping me off"

 

[e57]

I too am in favor of more stringent licensing, but never forget the law of unintended consequences. In California you need a license from the state to be an Electrical Contractor, that's not news. But recently they passed a law that required electricians to pass a test administered by the state to earn state certification.

Now these Certified Electricians are advertising for work in local papers and Internet sites and competing against Electrical Contractors.

Side-work is nothing new - the unlicensed guy can get up to $500 per job by law..... Certified or not. And there are people out there willing to pay that little with the idea that they are getting more bang for their buck. Maybe it's time to ditch the "Legal" unlicensed. While they are not directly competing for REAL work - they do undercut the small licensed guy - who in turn under cuts above, and further above IMO.

And IMPO the Certification law was/is a device to funnel labor through sources only available to the big guys by mandatory "Approved" apprenticship programs of singular flavor. And now after a nearly a decade of that law - we have "neopolitan" ice cream - but still only one flavor available to each geographical location due other laws that prohibit "Spumoni".

Not sure how more delicately I can put that....

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

How is it that all the oil companies charge the same thing for a gallon of gas? Seems like some kind of agreement or price-fixing ya know. How come electricians don't band together and insist to be paid a proper wage?

You're kidding, right?

 

[ramsy]

The public does not know the difference between a "State Certified Electrician" and a "Electrical Contractor". The public views their certification as the state certifying their competence. I see 2 certified electricians advertising for work for every licensed electrical contractor.

Several contractors have told me my 8000 hour Journeyman Wireman, certification card is equal to the experience they needed to become a contractor. Plumers / Framers / and General contractors all tell me they needed four years of total experience / education to test for a license (projects over $500 in CA).

The main difference between CA Contractors State Lic. Board (CSLB) verified Journeyman experience, and my 8000 hour JW card, from the CA DIR, Dpt. of Apprenticeship Std?s (DAS) certification unit, appears to be the verified signature for JW experience from my labor organization's / employer / other JW's.

One California tech school recently showed me another definition of "Journeyman" given to them from the CSLB. Under that definition anyone performing a portion of unsupervised tasks, including regular workers, foreman, and supervisors, all qualify as "journeyman" experience.

Therefore, if this "unsupervised work" definition is presented to convince employers / owner / builders / other journeymen to sign off on CSLB form 13A-11, it could result in applying portions of the DIR JW card's 8000 hours to a contractor application.

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/General-Information/library/forms-and-applications.asp#CERTWRKEXP

 

[ramsy]

The public doesn't know the difference nor do they care, they just want cheap prices and now electrical contractors are in competition with their own workforce. The Law Of Unintended Consequences.

Plenty of contractors leverage their license with markets that refuse to do business with employees or the uninsured. Contractors in these markets can jerk around P-wage manpower, exploit labor(ers) or low-wages, they can jerk around anybody and are not hurt by employee defectors.

I'd say contractors risk competition with their own workforce when license / insurance / permits are no longer an effective barrier to entry. Inequity, low-wage markets, low hours, lack of benefits, or lack of permits make it easy to convert the contractor's work to side jobs.

If the business is managed well enough to attract talent it will retain talent. If the business exploits labor as usual, the talent may leave or compete independently.

There are too many legal paths to try and stop contracting independence; by diploma, owner builder project, or joint venture, and too many people with valid signatures for the required experience.

 

[goldstar]

i am a serious advocate and pursuer of more stringent laws and procedures for obtaining electrical licensing. i think we all need to make it a point to try and do what we can to stop this kind of business.

I'm with you. I'm not sure there is anything we can do to (specifically) stop it but we may be able to make it a better marketplace. Aside from the fact that we all (or at least the vast majority) of us know how to do the work of our trade there are many out there who do not know how to be in business for themselves. That being said I think one of the requirements for obtaining an individual's electrical license should be to have some sort of basic accounting, business management, sales or other administrative training (either as part of the electrical exam prep or training soon after) before issuing the license. At least that way a newcomer to the trade will have a fighting chance. Being in business today is a far cry from buying something for a dollar and selling it for two.

Being part of a contractors' association could also be helpful in determining such things as the going prices for service upgrades, basic service calls, wiring hot tubs, etc. That way a newbie won't leave that many $$$ on the table bidding against a veteran contractor. Competition is the American way and you'll always end up against someone who views a job differently than you do and who may or may not have the same expenses (and not necessarily on a per job basis) as you.

Anyone can land a job by lowering their price but those who have a good business acumen stand a better chance (in the long run) of landing a job based on their abilities.

Just my opinion.

 

[goldstar]

How did I end up in this thread ???

 

[iwire]

How did I end up in this thread ???

Magic? :wink:


I split the threads, we were getting way off Marc's original topic.

 

[goldstar]

Magic?


I split the threads, we were getting way off Marc's original topic.
Today 09:24 AM

Agreed. But, they've given you way to much power (no pun intended). Next thing you'll be doing is installing some type of magic web-cam on my computer to find out who I really am. I'm in the wit-less protection program !!!

BTW, how do you get the emoticons to appear after the sentences ?

 

[e57]

That being said I think one of the requirements for obtaining an individual's electrical license should be to have some sort of basic accounting, business management, sales or other administrative training (either as part of the electrical exam prep or training soon after) before issuing the license.

In California that is the case. Much of C-10 license is legal, business and trade - pretty much in that order.

 

[tyha]

it's also the guy who's been in business for 40 yrs (he's no fly by nite operation) but he bought his house for $50,000, in an area where the average starter home these days is $300,000....and charges the same rates as he did in 1970 (because he has the same expenses he had in 1970) his truck is 15 yrs old, still works out of his house (which is paid off)...etc...they hurt more than the upstart because the public looks at this guy and says "he's been around for 40 yrs at those prices, you must be ripping me off"

Thats a very intresting point of view. I agree with most of it and do beleive that it can ,in certain cases, be part of the issue. But you cant say that his expenses dont go up, just because a part of his overhead is frozen. Everyone pays the same for material and he still has to keep up maint on his truck, insurance, taxes and the like. Plus Im refering to projects that take more than a guy and his two sons.

 

[HaskinsElectric]

OK, here's the typical "Certified Electrician" advertisement

OK, here's the typical "Certified Electrician" advertisement

For every electrical contractor advertising for work, there's 2 of these guys:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sks/586590983.html

Some of you will scoff and say these guys only take little jobs, yet I know many service oriented companies that specialize in small jobs.

The state of California is working hard to put licensed electrical contractors out of business. They created this new type of entrepreneur and these guys are thriving.

 

[e57]

If you want some other fun numbers.... C-10 licensing is up >30% since (*) the Certification junk has started - some guys not knowing the difference - and some just going for their C-10 instead - some of those were guys who missed the deadlines for certification....

* other trades are up as well, but not nearly as much....