Life of led tubes on old ballast

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Cletis

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Has anyone had any long term results with installing led tube lights directly running off old worn out ballast in t8/12 installs??? How did it work out? Im hesitant to install 800 of them in an upcoming job on 7-10yr old ballast (at customers request).


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Building on Cletis' question, has anyone had experience with basic LED bulbs, LED workshop lights, LED conversion kits (converting conventional cans to LED), etc. failures? I understand the Light Emitting Diode arrays should have a life in the 10's of 1000's of hours. I'm concerned about life of the electronics that drive the LED arrays. I AM installing LEDs for almost every client as they, as I read, believe they will last for something like 20 years.
 
Building on Cletis' question, has anyone had experience with basic LED bulbs, LED workshop lights, LED conversion kits (converting conventional cans to LED), etc. failures? I understand the Light Emitting Diode arrays should have a life in the 10's of 1000's of hours. I'm concerned about life of the electronics that drive the LED arrays. I AM installing LEDs for almost every client as they, as I read, believe they will last for something like 20 years.


Certainly longevity is the weak point of LED's and why I was against them when they first hit the scene. Nevertheless, they are here to stay and are rapidly replacing obsolete technologies. Actual longevity vs. manufacturers claims have yet to be verified, but I have no doubt that LED products will continue to get better as manufacturers pour all their R&D resources into them. I think the CFL and HID departments at lamp and ballast manufacturers is probably one person at a desk over in a dusty corner now. :lol:
 
I fail to understand why anyone would change to LED and still use a ballast.
To me, one of the main purposes of changing to LEDs is to cut down on maintenance.
ie; not having to change the ballasts.

I've done a few retrofits but always use the LED with built in drivers that run on line voltage. Now I can't say how long they will last but the customers are happy with them, especially not having to replace the ballast every couple of years.
 
why do replacement led's need a ballast in the first place, doesn't a ballast just limit the current flow for the old fluorescent tube? just trying to understand this....
Replacement LEDs do not necessarily require a ballast. But they may be designed to work with the existing ballast connection instead of forcing you to rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.
 
I fail to understand why anyone would change to LED and still use a ballast.
To me, one of the main purposes of changing to LEDs is to cut down on maintenance.
ie; not having to change the ballasts.

You can't omit it. Same question could be asked of why pin based CFLs were used when the same wattage cork-screw CFL with built-in disposable ballast cost less.

Fluorescent lamps require a current limited AC power source.
LEDs require current limited DC and the phosphor blend used in conjunction with LED lighting that employs the solid state fluorescent lighting technology have very little after glow so it is rather susceptible to flicker.

To eliminate flicker, a DC power without cyclic fluctuations like that from a battery is desired. This can be achieved by a large capacitor in the ballast but at the expense of creating a lot of harmonic currents and poor PF. Using a small capacitor or omitting it improves PF and reduces harmonics, but at the expense of infusing flicker.

Satisfying input power quality and flicker free battery like operation can be done using active PFC front-end. Including all of this in the space limitations of inside the lamp is a big constraint, so the decision to go without separate ballast is not without a compromise.

This gives you some insight:
http://www.gelighting.com/LightingW...es-Dollars-and-Sense-Type-B_tcm201-116763.pdf
 
Almost always when I am asked to do one of these jobs, the existing ballast/tubes are T12.

The LED tubes that run off a T8 ballast are much less expensive (about $7 each for 4ft) than either the direct wire tubes or the ones that use a T12 ballast.

I find the most cost effective way to do this job is to replace the ballast with a new T8 and then use the T8 LED tubes.

The last time I checked, doing this job with direct wire tubes was about $20 more per 4 tube fixture. (Less labor, (no new ballast, leave old ballast in place, reconfigure wires), much more expensive tubes.)

My clients seem to be more concerned with electricity savings (or the coolness factor :)) and less concerned with long term maintenance (i.e. changing the ballasts). I have no idea how long ballasts last when driving LED tubes. I suspect they last as long or longer. If research shows they don't last very long, I would change my recommendation to clients. Also if they were high-mounted lights, direct wire would make more sense since using a lift to maintain adds costs.
 
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You know what he meant.
Same fundamental problem, slightly different technical difference. It's my belief that its not common knowledge that electrical apparatus that exists between the line and actual LEDs perform the same duty and works essentially the same as fluorescent ballast.

Same fundamental issue. Different specific lamp type.
LED + external power unit vs LED with built in ballast
PL-C 4-pin 13W + external power unit vs corkscrew 13W with built in ballast

There is also the practical concern about the dangerous conditions created by ballast bypass lamps. You can't reasonably expect people to not insert T8 lamps in a T8 socket anymore than a warning sticker on a normal outlet warning people about only plugging in a very specific item. The consequences can expose real people to injury. I think concern for liability is the reason why GE/Philips/OSI are not offering the dangerous "type B" product here. Some guy on garage journal experimentally blew up a lamp with a retrofitted socket. Check out his posts here:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4825366


Almost always when I am asked to do one of these jobs, the existing ballast/tubes are T12.
Magnetic ballasts are hardier than electronic and they tend to fail less suddenly. There are some LED lamps for T12 magnetic ballast. Philips has one that is rated 2100 lm 4100K 83CRI.

T12 lamps are not illegal contrary to common beliefs. The ones that are readily available now have excellent CRI to comply with the new law. CRI is 89, 2550 lm. They claim to save about half wattage, but at 2,100 lm the output doesn't match and how much dimmer just depends on what type of T12 lamps they have and what they have available in their stockpile. Pre-ban 40W lamps were anywhere 3100 to 3600 lumens for 40W.

The LED tubes that run off a T8 ballast are much less expensive (about $7 each for 4ft) than either the direct wire tubes or the ones that use a T12 ballast. I find the most cost effective way to do this job is to replace the ballast with a new T8 and then use the T8 LED tubes.
The cost of absence of ballast adds up as the ballast is external. I think production volume has a lot to do with the cost. There's definitely more glass and rare earth in 32w T8 than 2' 17W but you know which costs more. Philips has proprietary LED power pack as well as ordinary T8 ballast such as the NEMA Premium ICN-2P32-N and both of these will perform more efficiently than a T8 ballast from 1990s. I do not know if the proprietary pack offers meaningful benefit, if at all over the common ballast.

My clients seem to be more concerned with electricity savings and less concerned with long term maintenance (i.e. changing the ballasts). I have no idea how long ballasts last when driving LED tubes. I suspect they last as long or longer. If research shows they don't last very long, I would change my recommendation to clients. Also if they were high-mounted lights, direct wire would make more sense since using a lift to maintain adds costs.
Direct wire does not make sense. They're a safety hazard, and wiring method is inconsistent so there's a good chance it might have to be rewired to match the available replacement self ballasted lamp.
 
Certainly longevity is the weak point of LED's and why I was against them when they first hit the scene. Nevertheless, they are here to stay and are rapidly replacing obsolete technologies. Actual longevity vs. manufacturers claims have yet to be verified, but I have no doubt that LED products will continue to get better as manufacturers pour all their R&D resources into them. I think the CFL and HID departments at lamp and ballast manufacturers is probably one person at a desk over in a dusty corner now. :lol:

The LED itself probably does have a long life in general. The driver is subject more directly to surges and may fail before the LED does.
 
The LED itself probably does have a long life in general. The driver is subject more directly to surges and may fail before the LED does.

The LED itself is the equivalent of mercury vapor in a fluorescent lamp. Essentially all lighting LEDs use solid state fluorescent lamp technology with the phosphor gel applied directly onto the emitter. This is very relevant, because the degradation, cracking and separation of fluorescent phosphor has a lot to do with the underlying reason behind LED degradation.
The mercury in electrodeless induction don't get tired, but the phosphors do, just like its LED energized sibling.
 
Use the LED style T8 lamps without the ballast. Straight up 120 vac connections. Use Wagos. Worth it in the long run IMHO.

I am curious how you reached this conclusion.

The performance of factory plugs that cost $12 a piece is usually no different from $2 a piece Champions, but people tend to review them far before they've even worn 10% into the life of Champions. However... these are products that have enough historical data for the claims to be valid from warranty analysis experience and testing by vehicle OEMs.

Multiple reports from different people about them failing at 3,000 miles creates a reason to avoid them.

Multiple reports of them not having failed at 3,000 miles is a reason to not remove it from consideration but not a good indicator of their fate to 100,000 miles. The only justification for the $12 plug is that it lasts over thee times longer than plain plugs backed by the brand reputation and selection by the OEM. If the $12 plug is sold by a herd of importers and new companies each wanting their chance at the immediate lump sump cash preaching promises of long life, I would not touch it with a ten foot pole. They don't know it. They want to take the money and pass the risk onto the buyer. Don't become that buyer.

Unfortunately many LEDs do not offer enough performance edge over another less costly replacement option to the aging lighting asset. The difference can be so little that it literally becomes spark plug comparison when you're comparing the best T8 gas tube with LEDs
 
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