It also said 1985 and before homes have 60 degree supply conductors and may start a fire. Romex is rated 90 degrees correct? Also how would 60 degree supply conductors start a fire? Is it from the heat from the fixture melting the insulation? If romex is rated 90 degrees, why do we use the 60 degree colum? Thank you for your help.
Light fixture said use only 90 degree supply conductors
- Thread starter zappy
- Start date
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ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
IMO those are CYA instructions. Older installations did have a problem with the insulation becoming brittle when exposed to the heat of older fixtures & hi watt lamps. I believe that problem has been reduced considerably with the way newer fixtures are designed.
I use NM cable at its 90 temp rating for fixtures.
I use NM cable at its 90 temp rating for fixtures.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Prior to 1985 the conductors in NM only had 60?C insulation. The heat from the fixture may cause the 60?C insulation to fail and that could in some cases result in a fire.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
I agree with ptonsparky that it can be a liability issue that the fixture manufacturer's don't want to be responsible for. I've seen this notation on fixtures that were chain hung also. It would be impossible for a chain hung fixture to produce enough heat to damage even 60 degree conductors up in the box.
RETRAINDAILY
Senior Member
- Location
- PHX, arizona
The way it was explained to me was you have to look at the whole circuit, breakers, switches, wire nuts, lugs, and devices, and most 100 amp breakers and smaller are only rated for 60 degrees.
- Location
- Massachusetts
That is correct except that at this point most equipment is rated 75C .... but of course you need to verify this before assuming it.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I don't believe that to be true. If the breaker isn't marked then we must assume it is rated 60C but IMO most of the breakers produced today are rated 75C
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
I think companies that do that with no basis should suffer from customers not buying their fixtures because it costs too much to have an electrician replace all the wiring just to install their $20 fixture.
That would teach them. Of course, who knows many people with that kind of resolve?
RETRAINDAILY
Senior Member
- Location
- PHX, arizona
That is correct except that at this point most equipment is rated 75C .... but of course you need to verify this before assuming it.
It was Explanded to me in 1988.
So I did some looking at my breakers and receptacles.
All the newer breakers are marked 60/ 75c but the older ones have no marking 60c.
None of my 120v 20amp receptacles are marked.
so you assume them at 60c?
Ignoring it.
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
Someday this will come up in claims court and some young attorney will decide to fight it. Until then, I don't expect anybody to stick together on this. Nobody sticks together anymore.
Check that: Us little people don't stick together anymore.
Check that: Us little people don't stick together anymore.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
I know some guys who are seem to be pretty all around knowledgeable on various elec. forums who claim that they cut in an additional box into the ceiling nearby the existing light and fish over to the light with new romex. I say good luck with that method, convincing homeowner it is necessary to screw up the looks. I just use high temp. heat shrink over the old conductors and keep my fingers crossed that it will provide the necessary protection from heat buildup. I am pretty darn certain it will. I also come across plenty of situations where nothing was done when a new fixture was put in and there seems to be no problem with it at all.
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
That is ludicrous.
When I had work done in my house, I hired an electrician. He came across a lot of older wiring when installing ceiling surface mounted fixtures. I had him abandon the old wiring and install new - in wire lath and plaster ceilings. It was expensive, but I look at it as telling the next person to buy, that the wiring is current. Always up sell.
Not all poorly installed jobs will result in a fire. The one that happens to you will be the only one that matters...hopefully with no one getting hurt or killed.
I laugh, as I see there are some who follow rules as long as the rules work for them and ignore other rules...:roll: So much for code, That is what I truly call a hack.
- Location
- Massachusetts
And that makes you the one customer in a thousand that would spend 100s or more just because they bought a new fixture.
Welcome to planet earth, how long have you been here?
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electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Well Pierre, I am a hack.
Is it better to say I'll put up that light after you pay me 10 grand to rewire half your house at which point the say screw you thief and put it up themselves?
For the most part people just don't care. If the light works that is all that matters. That's just the way it is. Sure I can try to convince them that new wiring is better than old wiring. But I have to admit I feel pretty foolish when they say that the old wiring has been fine for 75 years. Because they are correct.
The reality here in the northeast in particular, is that the majority of homes are old. The wiring is old too. If it was such a problem to install light fixtures connected to that wiring how are all of these houses still standing? This is nothing more than manufacturers covering their rear just in case.
So Pierre,
I guess I have to say the same thing that I've said toward some of the holier than thou inspectors we have here. Have you ever knowingly let a code violation pass. Do you only inspect to the letter of the code?
fishin' electrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Connecticut
I'm a hack too.
I have no way of knowing what the wiring will be until I remove the existing fixture.
Now, when I remove the existing fixture and find older 60? wiring and explain to the homeowner that I need to update it (at a substantial cost) and they say no, what would actually be worse, replace the old fixture or install the new one?
Given that modern fixtures at least now have the insulation behind it I think it's pretty clear.
I have no way of knowing what the wiring will be until I remove the existing fixture.
Now, when I remove the existing fixture and find older 60? wiring and explain to the homeowner that I need to update it (at a substantial cost) and they say no, what would actually be worse, replace the old fixture or install the new one?
Given that modern fixtures at least now have the insulation behind it I think it's pretty clear.
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Add me to the hack list. I guess it's better to leave the old fixture with no insulation at all, than to install a new fixture with a big pile of fiberglass to insulate the box or a fixture with remote bulbs like a pendant or a track; just because the manufacturers are playing CYA and it's a technical code violation.
Mark
Mark
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
There are two reasons the labels are installed on the fixtures, there may be more, but these are what I am aware of.
There have been numerous law suits due to fires and failures, the manufacturers are protecting their butts.
There have been numerous fires...seems like a good idea to follow this one, even if it means a potential of a lost job, which is still better than causing a fire.
I never own up to being perfect, but I am one who has always been more on the cautious side then the daring side.
Even as an EC, I had pretty good luck when discussing this with customers. Todays market may be somewhat tighter, that I understand, but this is one item that is known to cause fires. Fires destroy and injure and kill, some pretty important reason to try to avoid those issues. And, it may take years for this issue to develop, long after the installer is gone.
My comments are not driven in regards to inspection, in case you have not noticed, I left the inspection portion if the industry almost a year ago.
And I have my head in the real world. I am on jobs most every day, I see what is necessary to get the job done, and done safely.
As I mention earlier, I see some complain about other code issues, but not when it affects them...JMHO
There have been numerous law suits due to fires and failures, the manufacturers are protecting their butts.
There have been numerous fires...seems like a good idea to follow this one, even if it means a potential of a lost job, which is still better than causing a fire.
I never own up to being perfect, but I am one who has always been more on the cautious side then the daring side.
Even as an EC, I had pretty good luck when discussing this with customers. Todays market may be somewhat tighter, that I understand, but this is one item that is known to cause fires. Fires destroy and injure and kill, some pretty important reason to try to avoid those issues. And, it may take years for this issue to develop, long after the installer is gone.
My comments are not driven in regards to inspection, in case you have not noticed, I left the inspection portion if the industry almost a year ago.
And I have my head in the real world. I am on jobs most every day, I see what is necessary to get the job done, and done safely.
As I mention earlier, I see some complain about other code issues, but not when it affects them...JMHO
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