listed but not used

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sokkerdude

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I was listed as the electrical sub-contractor on the bid form for a job for the city Fayetteville AR. The contractor used the price I quoted and was awarded the job. There was no VE on the job and it was in the budget. I was aked to work up a price on the job the night before the bid date, they couldn't find a electrical contrator biding the project. I spent all night putting the quote together and making sure all our risk was covered. A few days after the bid opening the contractor wanted me to change my price to meet another electrical contrator price that didn't have time or skills to have a quote on bid day. I have been told if I don't meet that price, the other contractor is going to do the job. My question is what can I do? I thought if I was listed on the bid forms that it was sort of binding, that we do the job. Can anyone point where to find that information? Thank you
 
sokkerdude said:
My question is what can I do?
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Not much. Here are two things you might try, but neither are likely to help.

1. Tell the prime contractor that you will do the job for the other contractor?s price, but you will adjust your scope of work to fairly match the work that can be done for that price.

2. Suggest to the prime contractor that they get a complete list of work scope from the other electrical contractor, and compare it to the work described in your bid. I predict that there will be items missing, and that those items are intended (by the other electrical contractor) to be scope changes later in the project. Furthermore, suggest to the prime contractor that they impose your scope of work on the other electrical contractor, and insist that they do your scope of work for their price. I predict that the other electrical contractor would back away.

sokkerdude said:
I thought if I was listed on the bid forms that it was sort of binding, that we do the job. Can anyone point where to find that information?
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If you have no written contract with the prime contractor, then I suspect there is no way for you to force them to use your services. You say that you were "listed on the bid form." Have you seen the bid form, or was that simply what you were told?

If you can get a copy of their bid (it might be public domain, depending on the client), then look at the section in which they name you as a sub-contractor. If that section promises to use your company, and if the general terms (from the owner) state that there can be no substitutions without their consent, then you have a case. On the other hand, if the bid simply states that the prime contractor will select an electrical sub-contractor, without naming the company, you are out of luck.
 
Why would you want to work for a creep like that anyway? If you were to force him to hire you don't you think he'd find another way to shaft you later?
 
You would have to look at the bid documents. I have worked government jobs where the listing of sub contractors that was submitted by the GC with his bid was binding.
Don
 
Have you actually seen the other ECs bid?
The GC may be pulling your leg to see if you will lower your price.
I have had this happen where they say "so and so" would do it for less. I told them "Wow, that sounds like a really good price. I can't beat it. Thanks anyway." and they back pedalled and called later to hire me anyway.
My point is some GCs can be real connivers and try to pull alot of shady tricks. Especially if you are new to them and they want to see how far they can string you along.
 
This might be called "bid shopping".
Governments are sometimes smart -- call it institutional memory. They will look at the bid and not just the price but also the subcontractors involved. Hence, if they see "Charger Electric" listed as the electrical sub-contractor, they know from past experience that they will have no problems there. However if the bid lists "Haywire Electric" , they may have their doubts.
In any event what this contractor is doing is devious, unethical and may even be illegal.
~Peter
 
peter said:
This might be called "bid shopping".
Governments are sometimes smart -- call it institutional memory. They will look at the bid and not just the price but also the subcontractors involved. Hence, if they see "Charger Electric" listed as the electrical sub-contractor, they know from past experience that they will have no problems there. However if the bid lists "Haywire Electric" , they may have their doubts.
In any event what this contractor is doing is devious, unethical and may even be illegal.
~Peter
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if they were really smart they would not be bidding things out. they would go to some kind of negotiated situation like many commerical contracts these days. the bid process only guarantees someone will have the low price.
 
I would not want to work for this GC, however if you do, send them a certifed letter stating that you will not change your price to match the "other EC" but you will honor you bid price and scope according to the terms already stipulated. Leave it at that. Now, if the GC uses another contractor, go the the City and find the laws governing "bid shopping". If it is prohibited in your area, well you may have just hit the lottery. I imagine that you would be able to collect your projected overhead and profit from that GC in a lawsuit.

good luck and keep us informed.

Rich
 
romexking said:
Now, if the GC uses another contractor, go the the City and find the laws governing "bid shopping".
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What's the difference between "bid shopping" and shopping for the best price, as we all would do? :confused:
 
:)
sokkerdude said:
I was listed as the electrical sub-contractor on the bid form for a job for the city Fayetteville AR.
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The easy thing to do is to contact the city Department that is awarding the contract. There are things other than price that may be an issue here. On some jobs they are required to award contracts to local contractors. Maybe the GC went outside the local area to find a cheaper bid. I doesn't hurt to talk to them, you are a tax payer, it's part of your money that will pay for the job.

City governments are all different so the rules for awarding a contract will be different.

Never trust a General Contractor. Check it out for youself.
 
none. but subs hate it because it cuts into their profit margins.
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One, in many cases the second contractor does not have the expense of bidding the job. Large jobs can cost tens of thousands of dollars to bid. If we bid the job, the other contractors know that we have done the work and just cut our number without actually doing the bid. The other thing is that the owner doesn't get the benefit of the lower cost bucause it goes to the GC.
Don
 
Once we find out our price has been shopped, the particular contractor putting our number out there will never get another competitive quote from us again, if we quote him at all.

We will make a point of consistantly giving him a considerably higher bid than we give the others, this may not completely take him out of being competitive but at some point in time it will most likely help in loosing a job for him.

On another note, the suppliers in my area have refused to bid jobs to EC's that have shopped their quotes, this is another reason for last minute prices on bid day.

Personally I like sealed bid openings for this reason, it's hard to for the low lifes to shop bids at the last minute on bid day.

Roger
 
This is exactly why we will only provide bid support (scope, pricing, etc.) if we have a signed teaming agreement that requires the prime contractor to subcontract the work to us if they win. It's too expensive to put the effort into bidding and then let the job get awarded to someone else based on our work.

Depending on the customer, and applicable law, the GC may be acting illegally if he disclosed any of your bid information or pricing to the other EC.

Learn a lesson. Team with honest GC's and get a written commitment up from. Also, have them sign a non-disclosure to prevent them from giving any of your work product to another company. Your knowledge and experience is valuable. Protect it.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
One, in many cases the second contractor does not have the expense of bidding the job. Large jobs can cost tens of thousands of dollars to bid. If we bid the job, the other contractors know that we have done the work and just cut our number without actually doing the bid. The other thing is that the owner doesn't get the benefit of the lower cost bucause it goes to the GC.
Don
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One. Life is unfair. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

The other thing is that as a sub you work for the GC, not the owner. You have at least some moral and legal obligation to him, and generally not so much to the owner.

I know bid shopping is an annoyance, but it is not going to go away. How is this any different than telling a supplier he "needs to get his price more in line", without actually giving any specific numbers?
 
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Bid shopping is unfair to the owner. He does not get any benefit from it, and often the quality of the project suffers. As others have said, some larger sub contractors refuse to do business with GCs that bid shop. I know of at least one case where the GC either left the area or went out of business because none of the qualified subs in the area would price to him. By "qualified" I mean financially pre-qualified to bid the project.
Don
 
LarryFine said:
What's the difference between "bid shopping" and shopping for the best price, as we all would do? :confused:
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Good question. I would like to know that as well.

I remodeled a 2 story 4 bedroom house for a guy at T/M. I didn't want to bid the house because I didn't have enough experience figuring a house. The job went well and it worked out for both of us (me getting paid a fair wage and him not spending as much as a bid may have cost him). I think he paid me about $4500 and accompanied me to the supply house to purchase maybe $2500 in supplies (including service equipment and copper for a 200A service).
Then he wanted to remodel his own house and add a second floor. I went through his prints with a fine tooth comb, came up with absolutely everything I could think of and gave him a price of $9,000. I even dumbed down some of my own prices to help him out.
Then he comes to me and says he found a guy on Craig's List that would do it for $7500. I assured him that I was including EVERYTHING and that it was up to him to choose between me and some kid he found off the internet.
He decided to go with the other kid and now all I can do is wonder who got screwed...me or him.
 
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