Listed for use/Manufacturer's instructions

[jim dungar]

I think these are some of the most abused parts of the NEC.

In the discussion about a new panel cover it was mentioned that a red tag was issued for using the "old styl" screws. I want to know how could the inspector know/prove the screw was not listed? Likewise how could a contractor ever prove it was. Like wise the discussion about cord connected equipment should be governed by the code requirements for wiring methods and not by the fact the manufacturer did not approve it.

My opinion is: if the manufacturer does not specifically address it then it is not an improper use/application. For example, knockouts can be field cut anywhere in an enclosure unless the manufacturer has a specific prohibition or provides a specific knockout area.

Hey, like everyone else, I am worried about voiding the UL Listing but what constitutues a violation. Can I replace the cord on my shop vacuum cleaner with type SJ and a field installed plug, or do I have to use appliance cord with a molded plug? Can I use a Rigid cord on a Crafstman? Where does it end?

 

[pierre]

Re: Listed for use/Manufacturer's instructions

Jim
Not to be wise, simply stating my opinion.
It generally ends every day with whatever most will do while not 'getting caught', whether intentional or unknowingly. Where does it end? When something goes wrong, the NEC and UL come into serious play as legal documents, where the verbiage becomes so important.

How has it come to this? ..... LITIGATION!!!

Pierre

 

[hurk27]

Re: Listed for use/Manufacturer's instructions

I agree Jim with this to an extent.
Here in our area it seems that the local AHJ uses this to much. Like when I use a general purpose screw to mount a paddle fan to the rafters above a box not listed for a paddle fan. These screws will hold more than 300lbs for one screw as they are a #10 corse thread screw that looks like a drywall screw, (and I did test them with a weight set just to see how much they will hold) but are sold for general purpose. Code only requires a fan listed box when it is the sole means of support. they don't like that statment for some reason and insist on a listed box but when I show them the requirment in 314.27(D) and 418.18(A)and(B), and even the fact that the code requires this method with fans over 35#, then they pick on the screws saying they need to be listed for that purpose,I don't think there is such a screw. But they have never been able to show me where these screws have to be listed. I could go on and on but this is a big problem here.

The other thing is identified for the purpose. The NEC mention's this statment 22 times. such as in 408.20 but it is also used in conjuntion with the listed requirment also. and the AHJ's take advantage of this around here.

But the one they use the most is:
likely to be damaged, exposed to severe physical damage or exposed to physical damage.

They use this to prevent any PVC use exposed or NM exposed. and for many other things.

Their most common statment is if I can see it it can be damaged.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Listed for use/Manufacturer's instructions

If a machine or whatever product comes from the factory w/out a cord, then it is up to the AHJ to determine the suitability of the supply conductors. If it comes w/ a cord, then changing it to say sealtite would be a problem.
UL personel do not use the term "violate" the listing. I'm drawing a blank at the moment, but they talk in terms of losing the significance of the listing mark.
Except for specific requirements in the code such as 600-3 for signs, electrical equipment does not have to be listed. The listing (where not reqd by code)is used by (or should be) the installer and AHJ to determine the suitability of a product for the intended use.
here some examples we have run into.
A contractor wants to use DB100 PVC. That product is not listed. We as the AHJ do not have the means to evaluate the product per the guidelines in 110-3(a) and reqs in 347. So we do not accept the conduit based on the fact that does not meet the code.
A contractor uses tek screws to fasten a luminaire to TBar ceiling. The screws are not listed for that. There not listed at all. We can judge this installation and accept it. We also don't require the fasteners used for conduit straps to be listed.

The listing on a product doesn't mean squat if the product is missapplied. Such as 120/240 volt circuit breakers used on a 480 volt system (actually happened).

The word identified as defined in the code says nothing about being listed. See FPN under definition.

Inspectors should be required to have and be permitted to use good judgement in accepting installations.

hurk27, I wish there was something more I could give you to correct your dilemna.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Listed for use/Manufacturer's instructions

I know Larry but thank's It's just one of those things that goes with the territory. I still Battle it out over some of these things at our IAEI meeting but. unless some laws in this state get changed of it comes to a law suit it will stay the same.