Load Calculations, Qualifications

[George Stolz]

How about this:

A house failed inspection, the inspector wanted to see a load calc to prove that the house really was ok at 200 amps. My boss complied, and did a load calc, that weighed in at 187 amps.

The inspector said that my boss needed to get an engineer's stamp on the numbers to pass.

Now, I'm a lowly Residential Wireman, but in order to pass my test, I had to demonstrate proficiency at, among other things, doing load calcs. My boss is a master: he has sucessfully tested no less than three times in his career, and the inspector is a master electrician who used to work for us, and I know he (a weekend instructor and actually, a helluva nice guy normally) knows how to do a load calc.

Is he justified in demanding a stamp on something that licensed electricians are tested on and are supposed to be fully able to do, by the laws of the state?

 

[highkvoltage]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

George. As of the first of year here we now have to have a PE stamp everything. We use to be able to do as-build drawings for minor stuff but now we can not even do those. What code section is he referring to and does he have a supervisor?

 

[petersonra]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

The PE union has been very successful in sneaking in these type of requirements. They are are hot and heavy after what they refer to as the "industrial" exemption, claiming somehow people who actually do the work and know what they are doing are less qualified than someone without a clue but with a stamp.

A few years ago they were successful in getting several states to ban MS from giving out MSCE certificates that actually used the word engineer in the certificate. IIRC, it still says MSCE, but no longer spells it out.

Supposedly, a number of years ago, one group of PEs out east (PA I think) tried to get the state to declare that development of SCADA software was an engineering function and the SCADA venders should employ PEs to supervise the work of the programmers. I forget how much this cost the SCADA venders in legal fees before such a stupid idea was abandoned. I heard it was millions of dollars.

 

[rcarroll]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Hi George, in our town, a stamp is required on all 3 phase services & any 1 phase service over 225 amps. Ron

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

The sad thing is that in NC (if I understand the laws correctly) a licensed contractor (aka Master in other jurisdictions) that knows how to do load calculations can't "stamp" an electrical drawing but a civil engineer with a PE certification can.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

George
I agree. Inspectors are tested on the same thing and should be able to do the same calcs and check them.
If he needed an engineers stamp he should have said so up front.

 

[charlie]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

George, I hate to throw this in your face but the laws of the area you work in should be known by the person who pulled the permit. On the other hand, if this is something being required by the inspector, just because then your boss should go over his head.

 

[buck33k]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

the inspector is a master electrician who used to work for us

Could be some bad blood there George, as it takes little effort to confirm the load calculation. If the calculation were required on all homes, I might not suggest this.
Buck

 

[charlie b]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

I think that there are types of calculations that should not be considered valid without a PE seal. I also think this is not one of them. The NEC gives the process. Any skilled electrician can follow that process and obtain a valid result. Once the calculation is done, it stands on its own merits. The Inspector should have been able to review the calculation by following the NEC process himself, and should have been able to confirm that it was done correctly, and should have been able to satisfy himself that the installation is code-compliant. By asking for a PE seal, the Inspector is trying to get someone else to do his work. I find that distasteful.

Originally posted by sandsnow:If he needed an engineers stamp he should have said so up front.

That's the problem. If you brought the calculation to me and offered to pay a reasonable fee for me to review it, seal it, and sign it, I would be compelled by professional ethics, and by state law, to decline. I didn't do the calculation myself, and I didn't supervise the person who did. Therefore, I cannot seal it. You would have to pay a higher fee, give me the input information (square feet, list of appliances, etc), and I would have to do a calculation from scratch.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Originally posted by hardworkingstiff:
The sad thing is that in NC (if I understand the laws correctly) a licensed contractor (aka Master in other jurisdictions) that knows how to do load calculations can't "stamp" an electrical drawing but a civil engineer with a PE certification can.

as I understand it, in Illinois, an architect can stamp an electrical drawing.

in some states, a PE can stamp architechtural drawings. in other states, an architect's stamp is required for a garden shed.

the whole thing is being driven by greed and fear.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Originally posted by hardworkingstiff:. . . a licensed contractor . . . can't "stamp" an electrical drawing but a civil engineer with a PE certification can.

In the States in which I am, or have been, licensed as a PE, the rule is that I can stamp any drawing or other document for which the technical content is within my areas of knowledge and experience. The judgment as to what is, and what is not, within my expertise is entirely my own to make. If I thought myself competent to perform a civil design project (which, by the way, I do not), then I could seal the design drawings.

But as to the limits of authority of a licensed electrical contractor, sealing a drawing would definitely be beyond those limits. I think an electrician should have the authority to perform a service load calculation, but not a calculation of the ampacity of a configuration that is not covered by an NEC Table.

 

[rbalex]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

I have chronic sinusitis. I generally know how to avoid letting it become acute, sometimes using ?over-the-counter? drugs, but when it does I know that I?m allergic to penicillin and need a different broad spectrum anti-biotic such as tetracycline. I know how much to take and how often to take it. I already ?know? all this. I?ve had 38 years ?experience.? But I still can?t get the tetracycline without a licensed physician?s prescription.

A license of any kind, Medical, Journeyman/Master?s, Attorney?s, Contractor?s, PE, Accountant?s, Barber/Beautician?s, Driver?s, etc. is not a guarantee of competence ? nor is lack of one necessarily evidence of incompetence. It is simply the declaration of the State that the associated activity needs to be regulated for the Public?s benefit and it establishes personal, in addition to any corporate responsibility/liability that may exist, of individuals engaged in the activity.

In absence of a local jurisdiction?s requirements, I personally tend to look at the calculation George described as ?over-the-counter;? just as I look at my replacing a worn switch or receptacle as ?over-the-counter.? But I?m not competent to install a service ? I simply don?t have the skill even if I had all the appropriate tools. I could design it, inspect it, operate it ? but not install it.

A lot of engineering is fairly routine ? just as most doctor?s visits are from the perspective of the doctor. If we were honest about it, most licensed activities are routine to the ?pro? and many non-professionals (especially those who have worked with them a long time) often think, ?I could do that? ? and truthfully often could. There are engineers that are ?Stamps for Hire,? just as there are physicians that are ?Dr Feelgood?s? that will prescribe anything a patient asks for and licensed electricians/contractors that will still do ?what they can get away with.? There are hacks in every profession. Conversely, there are often competent amateurs. A few have even gotten away with conducting open-heart surgery - successfully. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't want them performing on me though.

The general rules for sealing designs varies from State to State. Some States don?t distinguish between the disciplines at all. Each engineer makes a determination of his own area of competence. This would be analogous to the idea that a urologist could still prescribe medicine for a ear infection. Others States, like California, have a hierarchy. This would analogous to a general practitioner being permitted to prescribe medicine but not perform general surgery without additional certifications - even though it was part of his medical education. Here in California, Civil engineers are permitted to certify any engineering design except structural designs requiring seismic calculations ? an additional "Structural Engineering" PE license is required. As an electrical PE I am permitted to practice any form of engineering except civil/structural or mechanical that I feel competent to do.

Edit Spelling and grammer

[ July 21, 2005, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Originally posted by charlie b:

Originally posted by sandsnow:If he needed an engineers stamp he should have said so up front.

That's the problem. If you brought the calculation to me and offered to pay a reasonable fee for me to review it, seal it, and sign it, I would be compelled by professional ethics, and by state law, to decline. I didn't do the calculation myself, and I didn't supervise the person who did. Therefore, I cannot seal it. You would have to pay a higher fee, give me the input information (square feet, list of appliances, etc), and I would have to do a calculation from scratch.

Sorry
I did not mean to advocate breaking any laws.

My point was they did what he asked, then the inspector asks for more on top of that. Needless waste of time and energy.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Originally posted by sandsnow:I did not mean to advocate breaking any laws.

I know that. I was just agreeing with your statement that the Inspector should have asked for the PE seal up front. The reason I was agreeing with you is that if you don't get the PE involved from the beginning, you won't be able to get a seal at the end.

BTW: Has anyone noticed my subtle efforts to break everyone of the habit of calling it a "stamp"?

 

[physis]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Are there any definite rules regarding where an AHJ can or cannot "demand" a third party approval or documentation.

I haven't read everything in the thread yet but it looks very fuzzy.

If you wanted to get really silly an AHJ could ask for a third party to varify the existance of all the circuits required by article 210. Or anything else.

Edit: He could essentially hang out at the beach all day.

[ July 21, 2005, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Originally posted by rcarroll:
Hi George, in our town, a stamp is required on all 3 phase services & any 1 phase service over 225 amps. Ron

Okay. So if in this situation, you had a legitimate concern that a 200 amp service was undersized, would you accept my boss' load calc, or require a seal?

BTW, it was in Windsor, home field of the CIA. My old friend is probably trying to fit in.

Mr. Alexander, excellent analogy. I agree, this is a rather over-the-counter problem.

 

[rcarroll]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Well George, I have kinda catch 22 situation in my town . Our work load is such that I really could not take the time to calc a service. In your case, after reading your posts over the months, I would take your calcs over your boss's . If the house was so big that a red flag was raised, I would probably call one of the plan reviewers in our office & question it.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Load Calculations, Qualifications

Originally posted by rcarroll:
In your case, after reading your posts over the months, I would take your calcs over your boss's