Local amendments not uniformly enforced, bother to bid?

[nhfire77]

I've recently started bidding new fire alarm work in a city, until recently, we only did contract service work. They have local amendments to the NEC and 72, and those mostly affect installation of new work. They have been in place, unchanged since 2001. Those ammendments are costly compared to the code minimums (for instance all circuits must be in conduit or EMT unless LL5 cable is used, which can be twice the price of standard FPL) I confirmed they are still applicable and enforced.

Finally, I landed a small job there. So I wonder why haven't I won others. The chance arose for me to see others work for bids I lost. The local amendments are not being enforced or are overlooked, at most of these jobs. There isnt a pattern of favoritism, different contractors with different results. Most larger public buildings in the area vary. The large mall- all in pipe, but that could be LL driven. Some of the big box stores comply some dont, those examples had been built/renovated in the last 5-8 years.

The other guy either A. doesn't know about the local amendments and doesn't get called on it during inspection, or B. is chancing it and getting away with it. They are not submitting design alternatives and getting variances. I tried that before bidding, the AHJ is clear, install methods and materials must be compliant to the ammedments. At least on the phone and in writing that is.


I'm sure others here have had similar experiences. If you are the kind of guy that doesn't intentionally ignore regulations, do you bother bidding this kind of work, if so what are your tactics?

 

[mgookin]

The phrase "new work" can have infinite definitions.
New Construction
Change in occupancy classification or occupancy subclassification
Additions to an existing system
Greater than 50% replacement of a system
Maybe that's where your answer lies.
I wouldn't do anything knowingly not in compliance with a regulation for liability reasons.

 

[hbiss]

I believe that if you find you lost a bid to another company that bid the work non-code compliant and it was accepted you have legal recourse against the owners who let the bids. If you were the lowest compliant bidder the job goes to you. If the work has already been completed that you bid on you have recouse against the AHJ and owners.

-Hal

 

[nhfire77]

The phrase "new work" can have infinite definitions.
New Construction
Change in occupancy classification or occupancy subclassification
Additions to an existing system
Greater than 50% replacement of a system
Maybe that's where your answer lies.
I wouldn't do anything knowingly not in compliance with a regulation for liability reasons.

The code applies to all FA. What I meant is the other guy is doing code minimum, I was planning on the local amendments actually being required.

Perusing recourse from the AHJ isn't an option, for me. I get what your saying, but being known as the guy who sued over a bid he lost isn't something on my radar.

 

[kwired]

I believe that if you find you lost a bid to another company that bid the work non-code compliant and it was accepted you have legal recourse against the owners who let the bids. If you were the lowest compliant bidder the job goes to you. If the work has already been completed that you bid on you have recouse against the AHJ and owners.

-Hal

Why should you get a job because you were lowest bidder? Some owners look at more than just price when selecting a contractor. You can be the highest bidder and if you do a good job of selling why your installation is best for the owner you may get the job anyway.

Why is owner at any fault for codes not being enforced?

 

[Sierrasparky]

Why should you get a job because you were lowest bidder? Some owners look at more than just price when selecting a contractor. You can be the highest bidder and if you do a good job of selling why your installation is best for the owner you may get the job anyway.

Why is owner at any fault for codes not being enforced?

Agreed.:blink:

 

[hbiss]

Why should you get a job because you were lowest bidder? Some owners look at more than just price when selecting a contractor. You can be the highest bidder and if you do a good job of selling why your installation is best for the owner you may get the job anyway.

True enough. I was just using the situation where the lowest bidder would prevail.

Why is owner at any fault for codes not being enforced?

It's not necessarily the codes not being enforced. It's awarding the contract to someone who didn't bid or didn't perform in compliance with the bid specs and requirements. The bid documents require the work to comply with the NEC and all local amendments. The prevailing contractor performs the work differently from the original bid documents which resulted in a reduction of cost that allowed the contractor to prevail over others who priced the job according to the specs.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

True enough. I was just using the situation where the lowest bidder would prevail.



It's not necessarily the codes not being enforced. It's awarding the contract to someone who didn't bid or didn't perform in compliance with the bid specs and requirements. The bid documents require the work to comply with the NEC and all local amendments. The prevailing contractor performs the work differently from the original bid documents which resulted in a reduction of cost that allowed the contractor to prevail over others who priced the job according to the specs.

-Hal

this happens all the time in more than just the construction world. Just what are you going to sue for? Everyone else that bid decides to get in on it and we put the guy in bankruptcy. Sure we get our revenge, but if this were done every time that happens....

 

[Fulthrotl]

I believe that if you find you lost a bid to another company that bid the work non-code compliant and it was accepted you have legal recourse against the owners who let the bids. If you were the lowest compliant bidder the job goes to you. If the work has already been completed that you bid on you have recouse against the AHJ and owners.

-Hal

unless this is public works being done "green book"......:huh:

i can select any contractor i wish to do work i wish done,
for any reason, or no reason. it's a free country.

unless i discriminate on the basis of race, creed, etc.
or some form of *prohibited* discrimination, discrimination
per se is not illegal. it's simply deciding what you want,
or don't want.

and contractors throwing stuff in not in compliance with contract
documents isn't exactly news. they usually get away with it, except
when they don't.

i just looked at the final numbers on some work i did. "doing it by
the book" cost me an extra $22k on $100k worth of work. someone
else might have done it more inexpensively, but they have to deal
with it when a customer says... "i'm not paying for this, it's not what
i specified. fix it. now."

 

[nhfire77]

So if the AHJ is enforcing the local ammendments randomly, without bias, and the owner doesn't know the difference (proabably doesnt care).... How/do you effectively bid this kind of work?

 

[kwired]

So if the AHJ is enforcing the local ammendments randomly, without bias, and the owner doesn't know the difference (proabably doesnt care).... How/do you effectively bid this kind of work?

You give them two prices in the bid. One for if local amendments are followed and one for if they are not.

IDK. Other option is to raise a lot of hell at the local AHJ about enforcement, but I can see that getting you on their list of people they will have no respect for also.