We, are about to write in our code that single family homes with a habitable square foot of 1600 square feet has to have a minimum service of 200 amps,also if it has a square foot greater than 3800 square feet it has to have a minimum service size of 400 amps, what are the plus and minus of this local code proposal
Local code for service
- Thread starter gimpyfac
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Re: Local code for service
The size service does not depend on the square footage of the home. The service is caculated for the connected load in the home. You can have a
3800 sq ft and have all gas appliances with gas heat. The service might caculate to a 100 amps service and that would be a stretch. I think you are stepping over the line dictating the service size base inadequate information. You list yourself as an inspector. If you don't know this
then all I can say is its a pity.
Using Mikes residential caculator a 3500 sqft home all gas with 5 ton AC come to a 100 amp service.
[ February 04, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: bob ]
The size service does not depend on the square footage of the home. The service is caculated for the connected load in the home. You can have a
3800 sq ft and have all gas appliances with gas heat. The service might caculate to a 100 amps service and that would be a stretch. I think you are stepping over the line dictating the service size base inadequate information. You list yourself as an inspector. If you don't know this
then all I can say is its a pity.
Using Mikes residential caculator a 3500 sqft home all gas with 5 ton AC come to a 100 amp service.
[ February 04, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: bob ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Local code for service
The only appropriate way to determine the appropriate service size is to perform the service load calculation as described in NEC Article 220. If you need to revise a local code, then I would suggest requiring submission of that service load calculation, as a part of the building permit process. You can stipulate that if the calculated load is between XXX and YYY, then you will require a minimum service size of ZZZ. Anything beyond that would not make sense from either a code perspective or a design perspective.
The only appropriate way to determine the appropriate service size is to perform the service load calculation as described in NEC Article 220. If you need to revise a local code, then I would suggest requiring submission of that service load calculation, as a part of the building permit process. You can stipulate that if the calculated load is between XXX and YYY, then you will require a minimum service size of ZZZ. Anything beyond that would not make sense from either a code perspective or a design perspective.
Re: Local code for service
Since you, as a jurisdiction, have the right to amend the code for local needs, there might be a middle way to accomplish what you want to do and not be hard nosed about it.
I do not think you are too off base, but there are situations that requiring said service equipment might be a waste of money, burden on builder/owner, challenged for other reasons.
Why not write it as proposed with exceptions that have soft edges. I do not agree that gas alone is a sufficient reason for exception, as fuel costs vary wildly as we have seen in the last thirty years as the system gets gamed all the time (look at steel prices) and I have seen heating switch back and forth between gas and electric. (everybody claims shortages and jacks the price for all types of product).
I do not know your climate, economic stature (Beverly Hills, Quartzsite), general health of economy, if consistent underbuilding, future outlook. So start with houses that you know need the power, houses that don't, houses that might in the future. Find some way of having non-burdensome appeal or variance. Try posting the proposition to all the local contractors. Publicize a meeting date and have open hearings for public discussion, more than once. Have your ducks in a row but be willing to change.
my 2 cents
paul
Since you, as a jurisdiction, have the right to amend the code for local needs, there might be a middle way to accomplish what you want to do and not be hard nosed about it.
I do not think you are too off base, but there are situations that requiring said service equipment might be a waste of money, burden on builder/owner, challenged for other reasons.
Why not write it as proposed with exceptions that have soft edges. I do not agree that gas alone is a sufficient reason for exception, as fuel costs vary wildly as we have seen in the last thirty years as the system gets gamed all the time (look at steel prices) and I have seen heating switch back and forth between gas and electric. (everybody claims shortages and jacks the price for all types of product).
I do not know your climate, economic stature (Beverly Hills, Quartzsite), general health of economy, if consistent underbuilding, future outlook. So start with houses that you know need the power, houses that don't, houses that might in the future. Find some way of having non-burdensome appeal or variance. Try posting the proposition to all the local contractors. Publicize a meeting date and have open hearings for public discussion, more than once. Have your ducks in a row but be willing to change.
my 2 cents
paul
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Local code for service
Paul are you saying a house should be required to have a service large enough to run it all electric even if it is all gas today?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Local code for service
Where mains tripping?
Where services melting?
Why fix that which is not broken?
The utility figures the service at about 1/2 of what the NEC calculations show.
This suggests that if you size the service per Article 220 the service is already larger than needed.
What prompted the idea of doing this?
Where mains tripping?
Where services melting?
Why fix that which is not broken?
The utility figures the service at about 1/2 of what the NEC calculations show.
This suggests that if you size the service per Article 220 the service is already larger than needed.
physis
Senior Member
Re: Local code for service
My attitude is if you're going to install a new service you're an idiot to put in a 100 amp. I typically will recommend a 200 amp because the cost difference as a percentage is minimal.
However, I have never, ever, forced anybody to do things my way. I loathe a municipality that would behave in such a manner.
You do realize this is only the beginning. An authority like this wont stop there.
My attitude is if you're going to install a new service you're an idiot to put in a 100 amp. I typically will recommend a 200 amp because the cost difference as a percentage is minimal.
However, I have never, ever, forced anybody to do things my way. I loathe a municipality that would behave in such a manner.
You do realize this is only the beginning. An authority like this wont stop there.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Local code for service
You will be seeing home that are 1599 sq feet.Why not let NEC figure out panel size and not add more codes that are not needed ?
You will be seeing home that are 1599 sq feet.Why not let NEC figure out panel size and not add more codes that are not needed ?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Local code for service
- It's excessive
- How many mains have been tripping, as Bob mentioned? Is there a compelling need for this change?
- Contractors will charge a boatload for a 400 amp service, resulting in higher overall cost of housing, promoting stagnation of the market
+ Building permit fees will increase (woo-hoo)
I agree with all the above posters, this is a bad idea. Please let it go away.
[ February 04, 2005, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
- Contractors unaware of this change will install per NEC, and have to rip out perfectly legal services to comply
- It's excessive
- How many mains have been tripping, as Bob mentioned? Is there a compelling need for this change?
- Contractors will charge a boatload for a 400 amp service, resulting in higher overall cost of housing, promoting stagnation of the market
+ Building permit fees will increase (woo-hoo)
I agree with all the above posters, this is a bad idea. Please let it go away.
[ February 04, 2005, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
lady sparks lover
Senior Member
Re: Local code for service
Lady
[ February 04, 2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: lady sparks lover ]
I'm not sure but isn't 200amp for a 1600 square foot single family home a bit much, I designed a restaurant with all the equipment on, and it was 5200 sq. feet, the load was less than 200. I'd say not a good idea!
Lady
[ February 04, 2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: lady sparks lover ]
stud696981
Senior Member
Re: Local code for service
This sounds to me like a scam so the city can charge more money for permits. Perhaps someone at the city also has a relative who owns the local supply house.
Sizing the service based on the calculated load and NEC is usually fine. If I built my own home I would put a 200amp service in because I can do it myself and afford the materials. But to automatically mandate these large services is unnecessary. Either the people who proposed this idea have no clue on costs and load caculations or they are scam artists!!!
This sounds to me like a scam so the city can charge more money for permits. Perhaps someone at the city also has a relative who owns the local supply house.
Sizing the service based on the calculated load and NEC is usually fine. If I built my own home I would put a 200amp service in because I can do it myself and afford the materials. But to automatically mandate these large services is unnecessary. Either the people who proposed this idea have no clue on costs and load caculations or they are scam artists!!!
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