lock off handles on oven breaker

[DaveBowden]

We're still under the 2008 code here.
A single family residence has a wall mounted oven and a counter mounted cooltop that are both hard wired. The inspector failed the wiring because the breakers for the oven and cook top don't have lock off handles.
I feel 422.34 (C) would apply to these appliances. They both have knobs with marked-off positions for the cooking functions but since the clock on each of them and the light in the oven still work with the knobs on "OFF" I could be wrong.
What do you guys think?

 

[kwired]

We're still under the 2008 code here.
A single family residence has a wall mounted oven and a counter mounted cooltop that are both hard wired. The inspector failed the wiring because the breakers for the oven and cook top don't have lock off handles.
I feel 422.34 (C) would apply to these appliances. They both have knobs with marked-off positions for the cooking functions but since the clock on each of them and the light in the oven still work with the knobs on "OFF" I could be wrong.
What do you guys think?

422.34 (2014 NEC, probably about, if not the same in 2008):

A unit switch(es) with a marked-off position that is a part of an appliance and disconnects all ungrounded conductors shall be permitted as the disconnecting means required by this article where other means for disconnection are provided in occupancies specified in 422.34(A) through (D)

If clocks, lights and other items still work, your unit switch doesn't disconnect all ungrounded conductors and the switch doesn't qualify to use this section.

 

[DaveBowden]

That's what I was afraid of, but in 42 years of doing this and I don't know how many wall ovens, I've never had to do this before. I know that just because we've always done it wrong doesn't mean we can keep doing it that way, but it seems a little nit-picky to me. Of course I've also had inspectors reject a job because the hard wired disposal was controlled by a decora switch and they don't say off on them.

 

[John120/240]

..............................Of course I've also had inspectors reject a job because the hard wired disposal was controlled by a decora switch and they don't say off on them.

Now that is just ignorant. If the switch operates the disposal & I don't hear it running ITS OFF.

 

[infinity]

Now that is just ignorant. If the switch operates the disposal & I don't hear it running ITS OFF.

I think that most inspectors would let it slide but it is a technical violation of the code wording.

 

[iwire]

Now that is just ignorant. If the switch operates the disposal & I don't hear it running ITS OFF.

If the switch is just a controller I agree with you


However it's the corect call if that switch is also serving as the disconecting means. Disconnecting means for servicing are required to be indicating. You might not hear a broken disposer running.

 

[david]

That's what I was afraid of, but in 42 years of doing this and I don't know how many wall ovens, I've never had to do this before. I know that just because we've always done it wrong doesn't mean we can keep doing it that way, but it seems a little nit-picky to me. Of course I've also had inspectors reject a job because the hard wired disposal was controlled by a decora switch and they don't say off on them.

I think disconnects are important or they are not important. If they are not important then the requirement for them needs to be removed from the Code.

What we commonly hear is if it?s in the basement panel (lockable out of site) then no one is going to use it anyhow. Maybe that is so but the inspector job is to make sure that the allowance of using the disconnect is present. If the repair individual uses it or not is a choice made on an individual bases.

 

[kwired]

I think disconnects are important or they are not important. If they are not important then the requirement for them needs to be removed from the Code.

What we commonly hear is if it?s in the basement panel (lockable out of site) then no one is going to use it anyhow. Maybe that is so but the inspector job is to make sure that the allowance of using the disconnect is present. If the repair individual uses it or not is a choice made on an individual bases.

And then there are some people that don't use a disconnect even if it is literally in their way when working on the equipment sometimes, but we still need to give them that ability to safely disconnect equipment and some assurance that it can not be energized so they can work on that equipment without it suddenly starting or exposing them to live components.

 

[Cavie]

The lock off handles as you call them must be in place at all times and require a place for a pad lock. They are attached to the breaker and held in place by the cover. Can not use the screw on type locks.

 

[sii]

I've also had inspectors reject a job because the hard wired disposal was controlled by a decora switch and they don't say off on them.

You should install an overhead light switch position indicator.

 

[mike1061]

I think disconnects are important or they are not important. If they are not important then the requirement for them needs to be removed from the Code.

What we commonly hear is if it?s in the basement panel (lockable out of site) then no one is going to use it anyhow. Maybe that is so but the inspector job is to make sure that the allowance of using the disconnect is present. If the repair individual uses it or not is a choice made on an individual bases.

This doesn't work like that. You can say most people wouldn't turn the breaker back on. But what if you have two guys working on the same house. One guy turns off the cercuit he's working on. The other guy (me) is working on something live and trips the breaker. He then goes down to the basement and re-sets the breaker. Opps, wrong one.
I got my guy good with that one.
Thanks
Mike

 

[david]

This doesn't work like that. You can say most people wouldn't turn the breaker back on. But what if you have two guys working on the same house. One guy turns off the cercuit he's working on. The other guy (me) is working on something live and trips the breaker. He then goes down to the basement and re-sets the breaker. Opps, wrong one.
I got my guy good with that one.
Thanks
Mike

wouldn't that be the point, the disconnect is required to be lockable (except a lock in the open position) when not within site of the range or cooktop

 

[kwired]

This doesn't work like that. You can say most people wouldn't turn the breaker back on. But what if you have two guys working on the same house. One guy turns off the cercuit he's working on. The other guy (me) is working on something live and trips the breaker. He then goes down to the basement and re-sets the breaker. Opps, wrong one.
I got my guy good with that one.
Thanks
Mike

Though there is some risk of that, I am even more concerned when on construction site or places with other workers, seems when something doesn't work one of the first things people have a tendency to do is just start randomly flipping breakers with no real logic behind what they are flipping. Some are not even bright enough to realize if one has a lock on it there is a purpose for that lock and they may even attempt to remove the lock so they can flip that breaker, and you can put a tag with big letters the purpose of why it is locked and they will not even look at it

 

[mike1061]

wouldn't that be the point, the disconnect is required to be lockable (except a lock in the open position) when not within site of the range or cooktop

Of course that's the point. I replied to the comment about it's in the basement no one will turn them on. With a real life story of why that didn't work.
Thanks
Mike