Lock out switches in breaker panel
- Thread starter tdsr7
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shortcircuit2
Senior Member
- Location
- South of Bawstin
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
Read 430.102(B)exception...
Inspector is correct...
shortcircuit2
Read 430.102(B)exception...
Inspector is correct...
shortcircuit2
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
I agree with the inspectors take on the well circuit lockout.
I wonder about the dishwasher?
For 430.102(B)Exception to apply, the appliance would be hardwired with no switch in the branch circuit between the breaker and the appliance wiring / branch circuit splice point.
If the DW is connected with a cord and plug, or a snap switch for the DW branch circuit is installed, say, in the backsplash above the DW, then there is a motor disconnecting means present.
I agree with the inspectors take on the well circuit lockout.
I wonder about the dishwasher?
For 430.102(B)Exception to apply, the appliance would be hardwired with no switch in the branch circuit between the breaker and the appliance wiring / branch circuit splice point.
If the DW is connected with a cord and plug, or a snap switch for the DW branch circuit is installed, say, in the backsplash above the DW, then there is a motor disconnecting means present.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
All the DW needs is a point of disconnect,a cord and plug will solve problem provided it is acessable.If it is behind the DW i would say no as it is not safe to put hand under a DW that is live.The lockouts are very cheap so why not use them.I know a cord and plug do help the trim man get his job to a point of final inspection faster than waiting on appliance to show up.
All the DW needs is a point of disconnect,a cord and plug will solve problem provided it is acessable.If it is behind the DW i would say no as it is not safe to put hand under a DW that is live.The lockouts are very cheap so why not use them.I know a cord and plug do help the trim man get his job to a point of final inspection faster than waiting on appliance to show up.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
Excellent point about the receptacle being behind the DW in the DW compartment, Jim. In my head I always only see the cord going with the water & waste lines through the oversized hole into the sink compartment right beside the DW.
'Course, there are DWs installed away from sinks. . .
Excellent point about the receptacle being behind the DW in the DW compartment, Jim. In my head I always only see the cord going with the water & waste lines through the oversized hole into the sink compartment right beside the DW.
'Course, there are DWs installed away from sinks. . .
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
I see that 422.31(B) allows a breaker lock instead of a disconnect within sight of a dishwasher but my question is why wouldn't 422.32 apply also? Isn't a dishwasher a motor driven appliance? If so, a disconnecting means would need to be within sight of the dishwasher which would not allow the use of a breaker lock to satisfy the requirement.
I see that 422.31(B) allows a breaker lock instead of a disconnect within sight of a dishwasher but my question is why wouldn't 422.32 apply also? Isn't a dishwasher a motor driven appliance? If so, a disconnecting means would need to be within sight of the dishwasher which would not allow the use of a breaker lock to satisfy the requirement.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
Infinity,
422.32 refers one to Part IX of 430 which includes 430.102(B) which includes the Exception that allows the remote lockout.
Infinity,
422.32 refers one to Part IX of 430 which includes 430.102(B) which includes the Exception that allows the remote lockout.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
422.16 Flexible Cords.
Take a look at 422.16(B)(2)Built-in Dishwashers and Trash compactors.
... "(4) The receptacle shall be located in the space occupied by the appliance or adjacent thereto."
422.34 Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means.
422.16 Flexible Cords.
Take a look at 422.16(B)(2)Built-in Dishwashers and Trash compactors.
... "(4) The receptacle shall be located in the space occupied by the appliance or adjacent thereto."
422.34 Unit Switch(es) as Disconnecting Means.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
cpal, 433.34?
cpal, 433.34?
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
We went to dord connected d/w & disposal`s several years ago,as stated if appliance isn`t there it would not hold up our final.Had one AHJ challange the d/w method and require a lock out.You have to remove a panel IE:toe kick to reach in under the D/W to get to the recep. that was roughed on the bottom framing plate.
We went to dord connected d/w & disposal`s several years ago,as stated if appliance isn`t there it would not hold up our final.Had one AHJ challange the d/w method and require a lock out.You have to remove a panel IE:toe kick to reach in under the D/W to get to the recep. that was roughed on the bottom framing plate.
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
Guys,
I am sorry if I wasn't clear in the original post but it seems that some have gotten way off track. I am not talking about a cord and receptacle but a hard wired appliance. My Electrical inspector requires a lock out on the breaker or switch (usually found in the basement)for wells that are Out of the line of sight and for hardwired D/W that are out of the line of sight. I have not been able to find this in the NEC to see if this is indeed necessary or required. It is with this problem that I am seeking help. Thanks again!
Guys,
I am sorry if I wasn't clear in the original post but it seems that some have gotten way off track. I am not talking about a cord and receptacle but a hard wired appliance. My Electrical inspector requires a lock out on the breaker or switch (usually found in the basement)for wells that are Out of the line of sight and for hardwired D/W that are out of the line of sight. I have not been able to find this in the NEC to see if this is indeed necessary or required. It is with this problem that I am seeking help. Thanks again!
shortcircuit2
Senior Member
- Location
- South of Bawstin
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
tdsr7...the answer to your question is...
430.102(B) exception...
shortcircuit2
[ March 06, 2005, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: shortcircuit2 ]
tdsr7...the answer to your question is...
430.102(B) exception...
shortcircuit2
[ March 06, 2005, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: shortcircuit2 ]
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
We just had fun kicking around all the possible ways that the DW could be hooked up, since your original question didn't provide that info.
Thinking about the well. . .There's a whole chunk of single family dwellings in the western inner ring burbs where I work that have their own wells. Wells that are "hidden" under the porch stoop.
The porch stoop has a 12" x 12" hole in the concrete floor that is centered over the top of the well head that is in the floor of the basement room under the front stoop. Things tend to rust alot in that room.
But many times, the as-built house had an unfinished basement and one could see the service center across the basement.
We just had fun kicking around all the possible ways that the DW could be hooked up, since your original question didn't provide that info.
Thinking about the well. . .There's a whole chunk of single family dwellings in the western inner ring burbs where I work that have their own wells. Wells that are "hidden" under the porch stoop.
The porch stoop has a 12" x 12" hole in the concrete floor that is centered over the top of the well head that is in the floor of the basement room under the front stoop. Things tend to rust alot in that room.
But many times, the as-built house had an unfinished basement and one could see the service center across the basement.
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
TABLE E4001.5
DISCONNECTING MEANS
DESCRIPTION ALLOWED DISCONNECTING MEANS
Permanently connected appliance rated at not over 300volt-amperes or 0.125 horsepower.
Branch-circuit overcurrent device.
Permanently connected appliances rated in excess of 300volt-amperes or 0.125 horsepower.
Branch circuit breaker or switch located within sight of appliance or such devices in any location that are capable of being locked in the open position.
Appliances listed for cord-and-plug connection. A separable connector or attachment plug and receptacle provided with access.
Permanently installed heating equipment with motors rated at not over 0.125 horsepower with supplementary overcurrent protection.
Disconnect, on the supply side of fuses, in sight from the supplementary overcurrent device, and in sight of the heating equipment or, in any location, if capable of being locked in the open position.
This is per the 2003 IRC, Sorry I don't have the NEC one on my computer.
TABLE E4001.5
DISCONNECTING MEANS
DESCRIPTION ALLOWED DISCONNECTING MEANS
Permanently connected appliance rated at not over 300volt-amperes or 0.125 horsepower.
Branch-circuit overcurrent device.
Permanently connected appliances rated in excess of 300volt-amperes or 0.125 horsepower.
Branch circuit breaker or switch located within sight of appliance or such devices in any location that are capable of being locked in the open position.
Appliances listed for cord-and-plug connection. A separable connector or attachment plug and receptacle provided with access.
Permanently installed heating equipment with motors rated at not over 0.125 horsepower with supplementary overcurrent protection.
Disconnect, on the supply side of fuses, in sight from the supplementary overcurrent device, and in sight of the heating equipment or, in any location, if capable of being locked in the open position.
This is per the 2003 IRC, Sorry I don't have the NEC one on my computer.
Re: Lock out switches in breaker panel
Before 2005 NEC 422.31(B) went into effect I always put fixed handle padlock attachments onto the circuit breakers.
Even when an industrial machine has its own disconnect switch, a handle padlock attachment on the circuit breaker handles the case where I have to unbend a disconnect that was bumped by a forklift truck driver. Had to do that twice!
Before 2005 NEC 422.31(B) went into effect I always put fixed handle padlock attachments onto the circuit breakers.
Even when an industrial machine has its own disconnect switch, a handle padlock attachment on the circuit breaker handles the case where I have to unbend a disconnect that was bumped by a forklift truck driver. Had to do that twice!
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