Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

[fbhwt]

Is anyone aware of any "Gray areas" in electrical lock out tag out. When ever I point out to my lead that proper lock out tag out is not being followed he likes to refer to "Gray Areas". I have the book "Understanding Regulations On OSHA Electrical Work Rules" with complete lockout/Tagout Procedures. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

Sounds like a cop-out to me. By refering to a "gray area" is only revealing to the true issue which is laziness. When in doubt, which is what a "gray area" would be, always tend towards the safer and more stringent option. That is, if you are not sure, lock-out. If it is over cautious, it is over safe. "Over Safe" is there really such a thing!

 

[bennie]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

The only grey areas are the LOTO rules are not strict enough.

I would have been fried about 40 years ago, while working on a 4160 volt power house isolated bus.

I opened the oil filled switch, tagged out the handle, plus one more operation that saved my life. I pulled the moving poles from the switches and removed the oil immersed fuse links. I put them in my pocket.

Later in the day, a lineman foreman came in the power house, cut off my lock and turned the operator handle to the closed position.

I heard the squeak from the handle, and came down to the floor level. I asked the lineman "why he turned on the switch". He said " this is my responsibility and the Base General wants his power on". I told him " Who tells the wives of the 3 men you just killed?. Of course this was a lie, but it had an impact, he turned blue. I called the medics and never told him I lied.

I fortunately, had enough clout to get him on the next flight to the US. We were working on an AEC Project in the Marshall Islands. I wrote not eligible for rehire. Reasons; ignoring safety rules, and attempted murder. I told him, in front of the General, "If I had a gun, I would have shot him"

[ April 22, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[tom baker]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

The 2004 Edition of NFPA 70E Workplace Electrical Safety Requirements is now available, it has a good section on LOTO, and actually NFPA 70E is the document that OSHA uses for electrical safety.

 

[caosesvida]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

don't lockout and you won't have much "grey matter" left in you head!

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

Article 120 of the 2004 NFPA 70E, as stated by Tom, covers the requirements for LOTO. My favorite statement is as follows:

"120.2(A)General. ...Electrical conductors and circuit parts that have been disconnected, but not under lockout/tagout, tested, and grounded (where appropriate) shall not be considered to be in an electrically safe work condition..."

Nothing "Gray" about that!

 

[bennie]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

At the Kaiser Steel Mill, years ago, I was assigned to replace a broken jumper on a bridge crane rail. I opened, locked and tagged out two isolation switches to clear the bad section.

I had a hot stick with a grounding chain and clamp to safety ground the rail. When I hooked the chain to the rail, THE chain melted immediately. Damnest noise I ever heard.

An ivestigation by me and others revealed that the blades on one switch were welded closed and separated from the operating shaft.

My point is the extra effort, is what can save a life. Dont be lazy, open the covers and use a wiggy. Test your wiggy while system is energized, then test the line after dumping.

Best to have a trusworthy friend for verification of correct procedure.

[ April 23, 2004, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[gzieber]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

I work in a hydroelectric plant and have to write lockout tagout / safe clearances to clear equipment out for maintenance. I too am disapointed that the management does not take it more seriously. Everyone involved should have regular training, and must be certified before being allowed to work under a "clearance". Unfortunately this does not occur. Sure the SOP says disciplinary action for violations, but I guess a "no no" suffices. "grey area" my arse! that is a cop out...

 

[gordy0]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

I am interested in learning about NEC code 70, personal protective equipment. Can you help?

Thanks,
Gordy

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

The NEC does not have any specifications for personal protective equipment.

The book you need to review is the NFPA 70E, Standard for Electrical Safety Requirements for Employee Workplaces. You should also review OHSA standards 1910, 1926.

 

[charlie]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

Bennie, I am sure that there are a lot of horror stories but you just reminded me of one that happened here. A crew of our substation mechanics were in our southeast sub and opened a set of 34.5 kV switches. The same thing happened and one of the phases was left energized. We had a loss of a good employee that day because someone did not visually check the blades and then put a set of grounds on the bus.

It is great to have you back, I hope it is for a long time.

 

[rickcham]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

As being a Commissioning Engineer for a gas turbine manufacture I see many different programs on this subject of safety at plants, anywhere from a paper tag and sheetof paper in the control room. To putting locks on equipment and locking the locks up as well as testing for power and pressure on systems.
I have seen changes over the last 5 years with companies enforcing tighter rules for the better. But does not stop me from still carrying my own lock and hasp.
What I do see is a lack of support for training in the NFPA 70E. I finally convinced my company to allow me to attend the course to update our company policies.

 

[awr]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

Originally posted by bennie:
Later in the day, a lineman foreman came in the power house, cut off my lock and turned the operator handle to the closed position.

Wow, that is beyond amazing.

Anybody know of a lockout device for home ckt panel that locks on and holds a ckt open? I hate working on say a dishwasher etc. and not having the kind of lockout available to me in the Navy... typically the panel doesn't even have a lock loop so can't lock the panel shut once the breaker is open.

-awr

 

[bthielen]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

Later in the day, a lineman foreman came in the power house, cut off my lock and turned the operator handle to the closed position.

Not only is this amazing, but is it not also grounds for criminal negligence? Seems to me that applying lockout/tagout procedures do not add a level of security if someone is allowed to bypass the lock and reapply power. I know I would have a hard time not pressing charges of endangerment or possibly attempted murder. Sounds harsh, but rules are made for a reason. This lineman foreman obviously had no regard for human life and did not qualify for his position.

Bob

 

[jsodes]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

Originally posted by awr:

Originally posted by bennie:
Later in the day, a lineman foreman came in the power house, cut off my lock and turned the operator handle to the closed position.

Wow, that is beyond amazing.

Anybody know of a lockout device for home ckt panel that locks on and holds a ckt open? I hate working on say a dishwasher etc. and not having the kind of lockout available to me in the Navy... typically the panel doesn't even have a lock loop so can't lock the panel shut once the breaker is open.

-awr

 

[jsodes]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

Originally posted by jsodes:

Originally posted by awr:

Originally posted by bennie:
Later in the day, a lineman foreman came in the power house, cut off my lock and turned the operator handle to the closed position.

Wow, that is beyond amazing.

Anybody know of a lockout device for home ckt panel that locks on and holds a ckt open? I hate working on say a dishwasher etc. and not having the kind of lockout available to me in the Navy... typically the panel doesn't even have a lock loop so can't lock the panel shut once the breaker is open.

-awr

3m makes a metal strip that you can fasten to the center of your panel that allows pins to be locked in to hold breakers in the open or closed positions. They can be used with both locks and hasps

 

[caosesvida]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

ideal makes some lockouts for many types of breakers.

I think attempted manslaugther, would be the correct charge. I bet if laywers worked on electric or politicans there would already be many prosecutions.

 

[lectriclee]

Re: Lock out/Tag out(Gray Areas)

Not sure who makes it, but I have a set of lock-outs for breakers and wall swithces that was purchased at a local electrical supply house.