Lock Out

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marissa2

Senior Member
Location
Connecticut
I have a safety person telling me that I have to lockout tagout two power sources back, so I asked him if I have to change a bad light switch I not only have to lockout the circuit breaker for the lights but also turn off and lock the main breaker for the panel the breaker is in, he said that is correct. When I asked him why I have to go two back he said because someone was killed because they only went one back and did not check for voltage and there was more then one source, and the requirement for lockout tagout was being changed to require this. Has anyone heard of this and if so where can I find it.
Lou
 
J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
marissa2 said:
... because they only went one back and did not check for voltage and there was more then one source, and the requirement for lockout tagout was being changed to require this.
Click to expand...

The current requirement, from OSHA, is to LOTO all sources of energy and to check for voltage. Simply "going back more than one disconnect" would not necessarily remove all sources.
 
M

marissa2

Senior Member
Location
Connecticut
iwire
That is just it he keeps telling me that OSHA is rewriting the requirement. He doesn,t care if the entire building has to be shut down not only for power but also water and gas as well.
Lou
 
S

sgr1

Senior Member
You did not explain this is, this a company policy? Or is he saying thats OSHA? I worked at a company that there requirement was you had to lock the first source and you had to identify what fed that source with the exact location of it before you work on something,but you didn't have to lock it out. It was a real pain looking all over the plant trying to figure it out. But if thats is their rules and they are paying just do it.
 
480sparky

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
If the person your safety officer is referring to had done exacty what he/she is telling you to do now, they still would have gotten killed.... the second source of power would still have been turned on.:cool:
 
cschmid

cschmid

Senior Member
Location
Northern cold country
I guess I don't understand the big deal here..Verify the power source and lock it out..then if the company policy is that you de-energize the whole breaker then de-energize the main and lock it out..Now if you are worried about the consequences of this action by other supervisors make him sign a statement stating he is requiring this action before it is taken..

If you do not feel this is the correct interpretation then you need to explain your view of the interpretation given by OSHA..then you need to list the associated hazards and other implications associated with this action plus the extra safety precautions required to do the Job...

Remember this is for your safety no matter how ridiculous it sounds..
 
M

marissa2

Senior Member
Location
Connecticut
cschmid
This has all been explaned to him, I even tryed telling him that there will be a lot of people mad at me when I tell them they have to turn off there computers and lights. Bot not as mad as the one person that I misses or someone in one of the restrooms. His answer to me is a inconveninence does not matter.
Lou
 
T

topgone

Senior Member
cschmid said:
I guess I don't understand the big deal here..Verify the power source and lock it out..then if the company policy is that you de-energize the whole breaker then de-energize the main and lock it out..Now if you are worried about the consequences of this action by other supervisors make him sign a statement stating he is requiring this action before it is taken..

If you do not feel this is the correct interpretation then you need to explain your view of the interpretation given by OSHA..then you need to list the associated hazards and other implications associated with this action plus the extra safety precautions required to do the Job...

Remember this is for your safety no matter how ridiculous it sounds..
Click to expand...

It's no big deal. Whatever your company policies say, do it. Regulations are regulations. Even if you don't have a written policy, you are bound to follow the required isolation procedures before you can work on anything. It is impossible for OSHA to be observing every company and you can do things the way you want them done. But if you have a fatal accident, it is hard covering your butt.
"Remember this is for your safety no matter how ridiculous it sounds..
Click to expand...
There's no IF or BUT's. Can't sleep well thinking you could have prevented an accident, if only you have been more persistent in implementing a safety rule.
 
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S

sgr1

Senior Member
If this safety officer has the stroke to tell you how to do it you are just going to have to comply or quit. Whatever you do just make sure your safe!! I was on a job where the safety officer removed a lock ( on a remote lock out tag out system) and put it on a different bucket without telling me and I got his job. Luckily I wasn't hurt 480 volts too.
 
iaov

iaov

Senior Member
Location
Rhinelander WI
This sounds like a company and or safety directors rule. Go ahead and do as he says. My guess is when lights go out and machinery goes down for no good reason the production people will make enough noise that a more sensible rule will emege without you having to do any complaining at all.
 
billsnuff

billsnuff

Senior Member
Location
East of 480sparky
first, there has to be a written procedure.........

Energy control procedure.

1910.147(c)(4)(i)
Procedures shall be developed, documented and utilized for the control of potentially hazardous energy when employees are engaged in the activities covered by this section.

second, as an authorized person, you must have documented training.......

Training and communication.

1910.147(c)(7)(i)
The employer shall provide training to ensure that the purpose and function of the energy control program are understood by employees and that the knowledge and skills required for the safe application, usage, and removal of the energy controls are acquired by employees. The training shall include the following:

1910.147(c)(7)(i)(A)
Each authorized employee shall receive training in the recognition of applicable hazardous energy sources, the type and magnitude of the energy available in the workplace, and the methods and means necessary for energy isolation and control.

1910.147(c)(7)(i)(B)
Each affected employee shall be instructed in the purpose and use of the energy control procedure.

1910.147(c)(7)(i)(C)
All other employees whose work operations are or may be in an area where energy control procedures may be utilized, shall be instructed about the procedure, and about the prohibition relating to attempts to restart or reenergize machines or equipment which are locked out or tagged out.

Third, notification of affected personnel is required............

1910.147(c)(8)
Energy isolation. Lockout or tagout shall be performed only by the authorized employees who are performing the servicing or maintenance.

1910.147(c)(9)
Notification of employees. Affected employees shall be notified by the employer or authorized employee of the application and removal of lockout devices or tagout devices. Notification shall be given before the controls are applied, and after they are removed from the machine or equipment.

now LOTO can take place.........

1910.147(d)
Application of control. The established procedures for the application of energy control (the lockout or tagout procedures) shall cover the following elements and actions and shall be done in the following sequence:

1910.147(d)(1)
Preparation for shutdown. Before an authorized or affected employee turns off a machine or equipment, the authorized employee shall have knowledge of the type and magnitude of the energy, the hazards of the energy to be controlled, and the method or means to control the energy.

1910.147(d)(2)
Machine or equipment shutdown. The machine or equipment shall be turned off or shut down using the procedures established for the machine or equipment. An orderly shutdown must be utilized to avoid any additional or increased hazard(s) to employees as a result of the equipment stoppage.

1910.147(d)(3)
Machine or equipment isolation. All energy isolating devices that are needed to control the energy to the machine or equipment shall be physically located and operated in such a manner as to isolate the machine or equipment from the energy source(s).

notice the last word - source(s)

here is a link to OSHA.........http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=9804&p_table=STANDARDS

please follow the rules and go home safe........good luck
 
Rockyd

Rockyd

Senior Member
Location
Nevada
Occupation
Retired after 40 years as an electrician.
A safety program, that does nothing to totally insure the safety of the employees is worthless. We all want to be safe, and go home at the end of each shift without wondering if we are creating hazards. That being said, is the safety program where you work, driven by someone who doesn't fully understand the position he is filling, or is it a program designed to change for actual forces that drive our industry? We have to be safe, and we have to be competitive, if not, everybody at the shop will be out of a job.

Time to make some friends higher up the chain of command, or, start getting a resume out on the QT.
 
N

nakulak

Senior Member
Marissa,

If the safety officer insists that some certain protocol be followed, why don't you want to comply ? Just get a couple of his cards so that you can hand them to people who complain, and tell them you are just following the rules.

At some point I am sure that the rules will change, but its not your ax to grind.

Be safe
 
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