Lol..."shut up and do what i say you apprentice."

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davidbananas999

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Minnesota
So ive heard so many times "dont question your journeyman or master giving you direction." "You dont get paid to think." blah blah blah.

Well im pretty sure the 65 year old been-wiring-my-whole-life master electrician in my company everyone looks up to is an idiot.

He was giving us apprentices a lesson today at work about unbalanced neutral loads while we stood looking at the 3 phase 208 panel in the restaurant we are wiring. It wouldnt be so bad if he was actually giving the right info to the others that dont know better.

65 year old idiot "whats the unbalanced neutral load if this very bottom single pole breaker is showing 18 amps with no other breakers turned on?"

Apprentices "18 amps."

Idiot "right, so whats the unbalanced neutral load if this breaker right across from it is also showing 18 amps?"

Apprentices "0!" (Ive stopped talking at this point)

Idiot "Right! So as long as you do a little work and split up your loads you can size your neutral wire pretty small!"


Ok so.....

2 breakers across from each other are on the same phase in a 3 phase panel. So they dont cancel each other out, by any means.

Second, its 3 phase... so even if they were on different phases, 18 amps on A and 18 amps on B leaves an unbalanced neutral load of 18 not 0.

Aaaand did I mention this panel is right next to the transformer we installed? Unbalanced neutral load has nothing to do with sizing the neutral in a SDS...Pretty sure this guy has no idea how neutrals work or how to size them.

Thanks for letting me rant. :rant:
 
I think what people often lack is respect for others. No one knows everything, which is fine, however I always treat the other person like they know more than me. Often times, they do. But none the less I understand where you are coming from. Even if by miracle you do know it all, being arrogant is not cool.
 
mbrooke said:
I think what people often lack is respect for others. No one knows everything, which is fine, however I always treat the other person like they know more than me. Often times, they do. But none the less I understand where you are coming from. Even if by miracle you do know it all, being arrogant is not cool.
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Agreed. I think lack of respect bothers me more than anything else. I respect my boss however that frequently is a one way street. That said, I voice my objections/concerns/suggestions/questions when needed, especially if I think he is about to screw up, or I might be about to screw up.

mbrooke is right: not one of us knows it all. The flip side is often true too: your "green" helper may just have a better idea or solution than you do.

davidbananas, I see where you are coming. Venting your spleen can be cathartic
 
In situations like this it helps to develop a skill to ask a question that is non-challenging, such as:

"I understand the how neutral would be zero if all 3 phases were loaded the same, can you help me visualize how 2 phases that are 120 out of phase rather than 180 degrees cancel ?"


You may possibly get the answer 'oops, you are right David, was still thinking we were looking at the 120/240 panel like earlier today'.


As other have said, arrogance will get you nowhere (unless your name is Hillary or Donald) <G>
 
Somewhere down the road in a long career , the obligation to 'pass it on' will inevitably manifest in one form or another, always a challenge .....

~RJ~
 
He may have been completely wrong. But don't you think calling him an idiot is a little strong. At least he was taking the time to attempt to show you something.
 
The most valuable thing I learned in my apprenticeship is nobody knows all the right answers.

You may be sharper on theory than a guy who's been out of school for half a century, but that don't mean he has nothing to teach you. And if you start down the road where you try to hold him in contempt by nitpicking his flaws, you're likely to miss good out on opportunities to learn, in addition to screwing up that work relationship.
 
When I was an RW, the shop started an apprentice class partly because they were too cheap to pay for classes as the state of Wyoming required, and partly in an attempt to broadcast company policies across the company.

I sat in on the first couple classes and as the boss started getting into some meaty material, I offered subtle, polite corrections as the boss made mistakes. Long story short, after a while the classes were turned over to me. I didn't lose respect for the boss and appreciated the opportunity. People are worth much more than their knowledge of minutiae.

If you had a correction to offer and remained silent, then you are without a doubt the antagonist in your own story, and it is entirely predictable that you have received the responses here that you have; this forum's entire existence is dedicated to the free giving of information that you won't get bending pipe in a corner all day, or trimming receptacles, or assembling gear. If everyone sat on what they know and helped no one else, we wouldn't be here.

Don't feel too bad, I am sure everyone here has a shameful story of pride that they reflect back on as a learning lesson that made them better people in the long run.

Edit to add: I should mention that I have also had occasion to "pull rank." Once an apprentice told me he was excited to pull wire into the conduits we had installed, because he hadn't done it before. I chuckled and told him that he definitely wouldn't be able to say that after that day.

As we got started, I explained to him that we were starting at the end and working our way to the panel, so as to not forget a home run on the way back. "Poke the fishtape in that pipe and send it to me, I will connect the wire and signal to pull." He did as I asked, pulled the run in, disconnected the wire and began rolling up the fishtape.

"Nah, don't bother to roll it up, just move down to the next box, dragging the fishtape on the floor, and let's do the next one."

He stopped, thought for half a second and said, "You have your way of doing things, and I have mine," and continued to roll up the fish tape. Bear in mind he just said he had never done this before.

Now, I had some insight into this fellow prior to this insubordination, because he had done similar to others onsite in the past and reported it back to me in idle conversation. Normally, I would just be confused at the exchange and let it go out of sheer curiousity, but I felt I needed to take a stand, so I said, "No, you're going to get your a** down the hall and get that tape in the pipe."

"I'm not lazy like you, I'm not a smoker, I don't need to take breaks, I can do this all day!" he said, his blood pressure rising.

"Look, I'm going to make this as clear as I can: quit f****ing around with that fish tape, get your a** to that next box and get it in the pipe, or pack up your **** and get out of here!" I then pounded my chest and said, "License!", pointed at him and said, "Apprentice!".

It wasn't even my job. The man had authority issues and bad judgment, and it was not in my job description to cater to it. Quite the contrary, actually. He got over it in the short term, but after that job he got laid off (something about being nuts) and I heard rumors afterward from my students that he was still bouncing from company to company following the same pattern.

Don't be Apprentice Moonbeam. Nobody likes Moonbeam, and Moonbeam will float through life feeling picked on because he places an unwarranted value on his pride and knowledge.

Boy, that was a long edit!
 
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I give respect where respect is deserved. This guy is a prick. He thinks everything he says is golden. Hes not some nice boss you can be buddy buddy with. He was trying to teach us this because he wanted to justify to himself why he thought the inspector was wrong in asking for how he came up with the neutral rating. I even told him the formula for unbalanced neutral = sq rt (a^2 + b^2 etc etc and he looked at me like i was an idiot

But i must admit, it is nice to see everyones posts about the flipside/how i could have acted. I do appreciate the responses.
 
davidbananas999 said:
I give respect where respect is deserved. This guy is a prick. He thinks everything he says is golden. Hes not some nice boss you can be buddy buddy with. He was trying to teach us this because he wanted to justify to himself why he thought the inspector was wrong in asking for how he came up with the neutral rating. I even told him the formula for unbalanced neutral = sq rt (a^2 + b^2 etc etc and he looked at me like i was an idiot

But i must admit, it is nice to see everyones posts about the flipside/how i could have acted. I do appreciate the responses.
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Good. I hope you don't think my last post was calling you out specifically, I meant it more as a general treatise on perspective and perception.
 
A year ago I started working for a new company. I had about 6 months experience in the field but as a temp and no one would show me anything because they knew I'd be getting let go as soon as the job was over. So I get to the new company, ask some questions about what I just read in a study book, no one knows what I'm talking about, I think they're all idiots and cock an attitude. I become last pick apprentice and only get sent with the shittiest journeymen and end up having to quit and find a new job.
What I learned, other than a lot of humility, was a lot of these people haven't tried learning more about the trade in years and are just doing what they've been doing. They might not even be able to recall ohms law easily, because they don't really use it. This doesn't mean they don't know how to get the job done good enough. I'd just keep quiet and be respectful, I would only ask questions that you have to know and do whatever he tells you. Not your problem if its wrong. Also, keep your resume out and find a job where you can have respect for the guy you're working for and get good experience and have a good relationship with your journeyman and also get seniority at a company you want to stick with.
 
iwire said:
Nobody is perfect, including yourself. :thumbsup:
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:happyyes:

davidbananas999 said:
I give respect where respect is deserved. This guy is a prick. He thinks everything he says is golden. Hes not some nice boss you can be buddy buddy with. He was trying to teach us this because he wanted to justify to himself why he thought the inspector was wrong in asking for how he came up with the neutral rating. I even told him the formula for unbalanced neutral = sq rt (a^2 + b^2 etc etc and he looked at me like i was an idiot.
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So it's an inspection job, the guy already got nailed, you know the correct answer and so the problem is........????

This 65 yr old has likely been in this line of work for a half century and many older guys can do circles around apps - as Big John alluded to earlier, maybe not so good on theory/calculations but great at the "nuts and bolts" aspect of installations.

Discount this incident but pay attention to other things he is telling you- for ex. things you could pick up from him about quickly running material could be invaluable- as everybody knows, the grunt work is all about speed. You might get irritated when one of your suggestions gets ignored or ridiculed, but remember this: a lot these guys had the same idea when they were an app and they know your way wont be faster.
 
Personally I suck at theory but I have learned some here... I just don't have that type of brain. I am a very good troubleshooter and know my way around the job but when it comes to theory I am lost. Never had an electrical or electronics course in my life. Of course I don't pretend to know it all with my men.
 
MiElectrician said:
What I learned, other than a lot of humility, was a lot of these people haven't tried learning more about the trade in years and are just doing what they've been doing. They might not even be able to recall ohms law easily, because they don't really use it. This doesn't mean they don't know how to get the job done good enough.
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Well put. :)
 
davidbananas999 said:
I give respect where respect is deserved. This guy is a prick. He thinks everything he says is golden. Hes not some nice boss you can be buddy buddy with.
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Dealing with jerks is part of being an electrician, actually it's a part of life. No matter what profession you choose all your bosses are not going to be the nice guys you admire and respect.

I spent my first 6 years in the military and some of my superiors were great and others were real AHs and there was nothing I could do about it other than learn to deal with them.

10 years from now you will be venting about the green apprentice that thinks he knows more than you do. That's life.
 
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Heh, I thought George's story was going to end with the apprentice teaching the master something. lol

Yesterday, we pulled in our secondary feeders: 4 3/0 and ground. ~125' of 3" RPVC with 3 90s and a 'trench sweep' (maybe 30* more). Bossman has the $2k worth of wire, but not the $20 worth of pull rope and wire lube we need. He just forgot to get it, and was going to try to pull it thru dry, with a pull string (which vac'd thru no problem). :slaphead:

I had to firmly say "no, that wont work", so that when that wire got stuck and popped the string, I'd avoid the onslaught of profanity coming from him, usually aimed at me. He then said we'd use some #10 stranded as a pull rope. I find a reel... looks more than a little short. "That'll work", he said. Get it all pulled thru, I run out of wire on my spool before the guy pulling gets the head. Now, I'm ticked off by the unpreparedness and mickey mouse improv show that this is devolving into, making us all look like idiots in front of everyone else.

I make a call, procure a 150' rope, went to the men's room down the street and got 2 water bottles full of hot, soapy water (mostly foam, really), and come back. He hooks up the head, I hook rope to pull string, get rope in, dump soapy water in conduit, feed head in. Wire pulled in easily by hand. It actually took longer to get the rope and it into the conduit than the wire pull did.

I overstepped my position at the risk of my sanity. and I'll do it again. and I'll eat the consequences if I am wrong. But I'll also do what I'm told. Insubordination frequently equals unemployment.
 
big john said:
The most valuable thing I learned in my apprenticeship is nobody knows all the right answers.

You may be sharper on theory than a guy who's been out of school for half a century, but that don't mean he has nothing to teach you. And if you start down the road where you try to hold him in contempt by nitpicking his flaws, you're likely to miss good out on opportunities to learn, in addition to screwing up that work relationship.
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Well said! :thumbsup:
 
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