Lose money on this job or not?

[Coppersmith]

A nearby existing client called me over to replace some fluorescent fixtures with some LED fixtures he bought. When I got there I quickly realized these LED fixtures were not listed by any agency and looked dangerous to install. (No j-box, 6" light gauge power lead come out from under fixture with no space or bushing so fixture smashed down on wire when fastened to ceiling.)

I asked him where he got them. "Amazon", he said. I explained that they were a safety hazard and I cannot install them. I suggested instead that I install some LED replacement tubes in his existing fixtures. I told him that I had installed these before and that they just required me to remove the ballast from the circuit so the job would be even less labor-wise even if the tubes were more expensive then his bargain on Amazon. He agreed and I said "no charge for today" even though I thought it would be fairer to me to charge for my trip and time. I thought charging would make him very unhappy. (Do you think I should have charged a minimum service charge?)

Later that day I went to Home Depot to pick up material and also look at the LED tubes. In addition to the one's I have installed before that require ballast removal, they have a new model called "plug and play". I works on both T12 and T8 ballasts. Just remove the old tubes and install these. Now I have a moral dilemma.

Do I buy the "plug and play", markup the product (double normally), swap tubes, and charge for a service call when the client could easily do this himself? (And it would be apparent.)

Do I buy and install the direct wire, ignore the other product, and charge my normal fee?

I'm tempted to just call him up and give him the SKU of the "plug and play" product and say do it yourself and save a bunch of money I would normally charge. I will lose money on this job but gain some good will. Not sure it makes sense to do so.

 

[MAC702]

...I'm tempted to just call him up and give him the SKU of the "plug and play" product and say do it yourself and save a bunch of money I would normally charge. I will lose money on this job but gain some good will. Not sure it makes sense to do so.

He should completely understand if you gave him this option, but substituted: "And now all you'll owe me is the service call and consultation fee, which saves you a bunch of money."

 

[Little Bill]

To me, it makes no sense to use the LED tubes with existing ballasts. One of the reasons to change to LED is to do away with the ballast.
I would buy the tubes that require the ballast be bypassed and charge accordingly.

 

[LarryFine]

Do I buy and install the direct wire, ignore the other product, and charge my normal fee?

This is what I would do. In my opinion, leaving ballasts connected eats half of the power savings.

You can save half of the labor by leaving the disconnected ballasts in place inside the fixtures.

 

[growler]

Later that day I went to Home Depot to pick up material and also look at the LED tubes. In addition to the one's I have installed before that require ballast removal, they have a new model called "plug and play". I works on both T12 and T8 ballasts. Just remove the old tubes and install these. Now I have a moral dilemma.

There is a slight problem I see with these "plug and play" LED tubes. If the fixtures are old and the ballast are old they may not get much use out of them before either the ballast needs to be replaced or the fixture needs to be rewired to eliminate the ballast. They do work both ways (kind of a universal replacement )

I'm not sure how well the tubes work with all ballast. I know they say the work with
T-8 and T-12 ballast but if you go to the manufacturers site and read the disclaimer the say to try the tubes for compatibility. And they talk of possible noise when used with some ballast.

I would check to see the age of existing fixtures and ballast and see if it would be better in the long run just to eliminate the ballast at the same time the tubes are replaced.

 

[Cow]

If I was working on a Saturday, it would be understood this is NOT during normal business hours, and there will most definitely be a charge. Light fixture replacement does not fit the profile of after hours emergency work.

We are clear at the start with customers, if they supply their own material, the burden for any errors or mistakes in materials they purchased is on them.

That burden should not fall on us to absorb the costs from wasted time due to others.

If you didn't make that clear from the start, I'd call it school of hard knocks, and remember to mention it from this point on when a customer initially contacts you about a project using material they may be supplying.

 

[MAC702]

To me, it makes no sense to use the LED tubes with existing ballasts. One of the reasons to change to LED is to do away with the ballast...

Me, too. I should have said that earlier. I only meant to give my option as something to say when you really do want to give him an option for cheap DIY.

 

[oldsparky52]

To me, it makes no sense to use the LED tubes with existing ballasts. One of the reasons to change to LED is to do away with the ballast.
I would buy the tubes that require the ballast be bypassed and charge accordingly.

This sounds right

 

[ramsy]

..I'm tempted to just call him up and give him the SKU of the "(ANY)" product and say do it yourself and save a bunch of money I would normally charge. I will lose money on this job but gain some good will. Not sure it makes sense to do so.

People have rewarded similar charity from me in public domains without stating anything was free. That way the local community knows my character, without expecting a free lunch.

In my area, Master contractors and their organized Journeyman are public-works experts with plans, less interested in minor-product listings specific to service jobs.

Residential masters are also more specialized with service upgrades, or renovation contracts, rather than matching components for proper retrofits, much less complying with motion-sensor dimming for State energy Codes, or POCO-energy credits.

Service contractors specializing in energy rebates can offer more to clients, than most Master builders dependent on someone else s plans.

 

[romex jockey]

Now I have a moral dilemma.
.

Yet Amazon, Google, Apple, Facebook ,Ebay ,etc seem to have a much lower standard....

Think on it Copperdude....:happyyes: ~RJ~

 

[jeff48356]

A nearby existing client called me over to replace some fluorescent fixtures with some LED fixtures he bought. When I got there I quickly realized these LED fixtures were not listed by any agency and looked dangerous to install. (No j-box, 6" light gauge power lead come out from under fixture with no space or bushing so fixture smashed down on wire when fastened to ceiling.) I asked him where he got them. "Amazon", he said. I explained that they were a safety hazard and I cannot install them.

Hey, I had the exact same thing happen to me last winter! Homeowner bought some cheap garbage, expected me to install them, and discovered that I couldn't in a Code-compliant manner, as the "fixtures" lacked any method of attaching wiring to. These were exactly as you describe. He told me that he bought them on Amazon. I had a hard time explaining to him about UL listings and proper methods for wiring fixtures. To this day I don't know if he found some handyman hack to actually hook them up for him, or if he sent them back.

I wish people would quit buying cheap garbage online and expecting us to work with it. Another place that I'm tired of people buying fixtures from is IKEA. Those are just as bad, as they also are NOT UL-listed, and have non-standard installation hardware.

 

[kwired]

Did the amazon fixtures have a cord and plug connection? Install receptacles and let owner hang and plug them in.

 

[jeff48356]

Did the amazon fixtures have a cord and plug connection? Install receptacles and let owner hang and plug them in.

Nope, just two wires coming out of the top of the LED panel, with no place on the unit to attach wiring in an approved NEC method.

 

[Coppersmith]

So here is a followup to the story.

I decide to offer to install direct wire led tubes as I can justify this because removing the ballast will save money especially when the ballast finally dies and it's a way to actually make some money on this job. I'm just about to call the client when he calls me. Says he did some research and found the LED tubes at home depot and gives me the shelf price. I look at the webpage and agree they will work. Well now I can't tell him "OK, I'll pick some up, double the price, and sell them to you." So I tell him "go buy those and you'll save some money because otherwise I have to charge for my time. Then I'll come over and install them." He's happy with this arrangement and so am I.