LOTO proceedures

[Mule]

I continualy find people who think that pushing a estop, or even locking out a control button is legal LOTO.....I was alway taught to open the power conductors and LOTO. Am I wrong....I was thinking this was the only legal LO...open power conductors...??

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The NEC requires Qualified Persons to be making installations.

From my experience as an inspector in the lower NYS area, I believe that there is an inordinate amount of work being installed by unqualified persons.

 

[SEO]

Thats a good way to injure or kill someone. You may have multiple start buttons or a faulty start button. Always open disconnect and lock out. Off the subject a little how many times have you seen open switches with fans keeping the equipment cool to keep running?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Off the subject a little how many times have you seen open switches with fans keeping the equipment cool to keep running?[/quote

Do you mean something like this?

Wait, the breaker is even too hot for the fans, we will use portable A/C units.

This feeder overcurrent device was tested to show it was - 600A overcurrent device:
A-phase, carrying 685 amps
B-phase, carrying 705 amps
C-phase, carrying 708 amps

 

[Mule]

Off the subject a little how many times have you seen open switches with fans keeping the equipment cool to keep running?[/quote

Do you mean something like this?

Wait, the breaker is even too hot for the fans, we will use portable A/C units.

This feeder overcurrent device was tested to show it was - 600A overcurrent device:
A-phase, carrying 685 amps
B-phase, carrying 705 amps
C-phase, carrying 708 amps

mcu

Much more current, and the wire jacket will be melted down into the conductor strands....

I can hear them now....
"If we can just make it until turnaround, or shift change", or, "we dont have the budget", or, "that breaker is bad and needs replaced"

Then perhaps they will get on the internet purchase a used breaker paying overnight fees, then call their $8hr maintanence men ask them to change out the "bolt on" breaker hot, because they dont want to shut it down...they do it, and tell all their buddies how tuff they are, or the public reads in the paper about a funeral......bla bla

 

[SEO]

Off the subject a little how many times have you seen open switches with fans keeping the equipment cool to keep running?[/quote

Do you mean something like this?

Wait, the breaker is even too hot for the fans, we will use portable A/C units.

This feeder overcurrent device was tested to show it was - 600A overcurrent device:
A-phase, carrying 685 amps
B-phase, carrying 705 amps
C-phase, carrying 708 amps

Nice picture Pierre. I've seen that practice all over the country.

 

[hillbilly1]

They probably changed out the breaker to a 800 and left the wire the same. I don't know how many times a customer has requested that I change a 20 amp breaker out to a 30 because of their overloading it keeps tripping it.

 

[billsnuff]

29 cfr 1910.147

29 cfr 1910.147

Lockout. The placement of a lockout device on an energy isolating device, in accordance with an established procedure, ensuring that the energy isolating device and the equipment being controlled cannot be operated until the lockout device is removed.

Energy isolating device. A mechanical device that physically prevents the transmission or release of energy, including but not limited to the following: A manually operated electrical circuit breaker; a disconnect switch; a manually operated switch by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from all ungrounded supply conductors, and, in addition, no pole can be operated independently; a line valve; a block; and any similar device used to block or isolate energy. Push buttons, selector switches and other control circuit type devices are not energy isolating devices.

OSHA rules for general industry.........FWIW

 

[LarryFine]

I don't know how many times a customer has requested that I change a 20 amp breaker out to a 30 because of their overloading it keeps tripping it.

I don't either, but I know how many times I've done it.

 

[GeorgeB]

I continually find people who think that pushing a estop, or even locking out a control button is legal LOTO.....I was always taught to open the power conductors and LOTO. Am I wrong....I was thinking this was the only legal LO...open power conductors...??

My customers virtually universally regard the LO part as "Isolation of all sources of energy". The machinery with which I am involved will usually have mechanical, electrical, pneumatic, and hydraulic energy, some stored (gravity, batteries, receivers, accumulators). All must be taken to what most procedures refer to as "zero energy state" or isolated. It will usually include a control panel lock and one (or more) MCC lock.

HOWEVER, not all work requires that. Their qualified and approved (internal) procedures make the determination.

Aside, I believe that OSHA has THREE steps, LockOut, TagOut, TryOut. In my support work at facilities who FEEL they understand the rules, that 3 step sequence is universal.

 

[480sparky]

......mechanical, electrical, pneumatic, and hydraulic energy, some stored (gravity, batteries, receivers, accumulators). .....

There's also steam, pressurized gasses, kitnetic energy (moving parts driven by inertia), latent heat, in rare cases- radiation.... the list is seemingly endless.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I wonder sometimes what people are actually thinking about when they perform certain jobs. Temporarily installing the A/C to cool the breaker has raised the ambient temperature of the room itself.
There is going to be more changes to the equipment, than changing a circuit breaker.

There are many other issues in this room (and other portions of the building), as seen in the picture. I have requested, and the property owner has agreed to have a testing company perform certain tests on this property. The testing company has been there, and agrees with me; and they have taken further steps in their assessment.

 

[JJWalecka]

Off the subject a little how many times have you seen open switches with fans keeping the equipment cool to keep running?[/quote

Do you mean something like this?

Wait, the breaker is even too hot for the fans, we will use portable A/C units.

This feeder overcurrent device was tested to show it was - 600A overcurrent device:
A-phase, carrying 685 amps
B-phase, carrying 705 amps
C-phase, carrying 708 amps

LOL holly cow! Never seen that before

JJ

 

[weressl]

I continualy find people who think that pushing a estop, or even locking out a control button is legal LOTO.....I was alway taught to open the power conductors and LOTO. Am I wrong....I was thinking this was the only legal LO...open power conductors...??

You are correct. OSHA specifically mentions that locking out the control circuit is NOT and acceptable removal of the hazardous energy source.

Having said that, it seem to remain in practice to hang a 'do not operate' or 'out of service' tag on the control stations. Misleading and confusing, but pacifies the people who still refuses to understand the fallacy of it.

 

[Fulthrotl]

You are correct. OSHA specifically mentions that locking out the control circuit is NOT and acceptable removal of the hazardous energy source.

Having said that, it seem to remain in practice to hang a 'do not operate' or 'out of service' tag on the control stations. Misleading and confusing, but pacifies the people who still refuses to understand the fallacy of it.

if my hands are going to be in it, i have a padlock with tag on the disconnect,
the tag, and the padlock have my name and cellphone number on it,
the bucket is locked shut if possible with a similar padlock, and the
fuses are out of the bucket and in my toolbox.:smile:

however, that's just me working in a plant somewhere... in a POCO
situation, there's the litany:

"at this time, i understand that i have a clearance on position 16-4
of switchrack "b", extending from the bottom of the clips. i understand
that the top of the clips has 34.5kv potential. i have personally tested
all three phases hot-dead-hot, and my personal shorts and grounds are
applied".

 

[dbuckley]

LOL holly cow! Never seen that before

Nor I. I've seen some "interesting" thermal imaging scans, but never seen anyone think that the answer to a hot switch is to aim an portable A/C at the thing to keep it from catching fire...

 

[ctmike]

Maybe they should have just put a bucket of ice in front of the fan

 

[Fulthrotl]

Maybe they should have just put a bucket of ice in front of the fan

it has to be high dielectric strength ice, and that is expensive.

 

[frenchelectrican]

Yeah .,, right why not someone get dryice and blow it in there that will get cold fast., However I will not try that at all.

Speaking of portable A/C unit yeah I do see it show up few locations that is a dead giveaway that haveing issue with the breaker even fuse they will do that too.

Merci,Marc

 

[Fulthrotl]

Yeah .,, right why not someone get dryice and blow it in there that will get cold fast., However I will not try that at all.

it'll be safer too.... when the gear blows, there won't be any oxygen in
the room to support combustion.....