Are low voltage path lights allowed to be closer than 10' to a swimming pool if the transformer is pool and spa rated? NEC 411.4, 680.22(B)(4). Our concern is lack of ground fault protection on the load side of the tranformer for fixtures between 5' and 10' form the waters edge.
Low voltage path lights at pools
- Thread starter leslyons
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ty
Senior Member
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- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
By 'pool and spa rated', do you mean GFCI protection on the secondary side?
By 'pool and spa rated', do you mean GFCI protection on the secondary side?
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
No, there is no GFCI on the low voltage secondary.
My understanding is that pool and spa rated transformers (rated for underwater fixtures) are constructed such that a let-through of line voltage is not possible. The reading of the code from the manufacturers veiwpoint is that low-voltage is inherently safe around water. That a shock from an unprotected low-voltage circuit would be minor and not a hazard. I'm not so sure.
No, there is no GFCI on the low voltage secondary.
My understanding is that pool and spa rated transformers (rated for underwater fixtures) are constructed such that a let-through of line voltage is not possible. The reading of the code from the manufacturers veiwpoint is that low-voltage is inherently safe around water. That a shock from an unprotected low-voltage circuit would be minor and not a hazard. I'm not so sure.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
At Mike Holts grounding class he presented information that says voltages between 2 and 5 volts can be fatal in pools. Unless there is ground fault protection on the circuit to the lights, this is a violation of 680.22(B)(4). There is no voltage exception in that section.
Don
fixed typo
[ December 01, 2005, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]
At Mike Holts grounding class he presented information that says voltages between 2 and 5 volts can be fatal in pools. Unless there is ground fault protection on the circuit to the lights, this is a violation of 680.22(B)(4). There is no voltage exception in that section.
Don
fixed typo
[ December 01, 2005, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
To add to what Don has said, I believe that study is posted on Mike's newsletter.
To answer the original question, no lighting is permitted within 5 ft horizontally of a new permanent pool, unless it is at least 12ft above maximum water level of the pool.. If the lighting is no closer than 5 ft and not further than 10 ft, it will require GFCI protection.
680.22(B)(1)&(4)
To add to what Don has said, I believe that study is posted on Mike's newsletter.
To answer the original question, no lighting is permitted within 5 ft horizontally of a new permanent pool, unless it is at least 12ft above maximum water level of the pool.. If the lighting is no closer than 5 ft and not further than 10 ft, it will require GFCI protection.
680.22(B)(1)&(4)
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
Thank-you Don and Pierre for your responses. I agree completely with the danger of low-voltage and with the requirement for GFCI.
The literature I have from Unique Lighting Systems claims ETL approval and quote "According to NEC section 680 all fixtures in or within 10' of water ... must be powered by a pool and spa rated transformer". The transformer is plugged into a GFCI outlet. The GFCI does not protect the low-voltage load side feeders and fixtures.
Now, back to the original question. Can those fixtures be less than 10' from the waters edge? Is the protection of the transformer alone enough?
Thank-you Don and Pierre for your responses. I agree completely with the danger of low-voltage and with the requirement for GFCI.
The literature I have from Unique Lighting Systems claims ETL approval and quote "According to NEC section 680 all fixtures in or within 10' of water ... must be powered by a pool and spa rated transformer". The transformer is plugged into a GFCI outlet. The GFCI does not protect the low-voltage load side feeders and fixtures.
Now, back to the original question. Can those fixtures be less than 10' from the waters edge? Is the protection of the transformer alone enough?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
Don
No. The power to the fixtures must have GFCI protection and it doesn't.
Don
ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
Low voltage, or not, Amps are Amps. Do the math.
I think you knew the answer all along, and was looking for some back-up?
Low voltage, or not, Amps are Amps. Do the math.
I think you knew the answer all along, and was looking for some back-up?
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
Thank-you for your response Ty,
Yes, we are leaning toward holding to the 10' minimum distance. And it is good to hear that there is some agreement with that. But I'm still confused. Many jurisdictions permit it. Industry claims NEC 680 allows it. ETL and UL list them.
Article 411.4 says 10' minimum, except as provided in Article 680. Well, 680 where? 680.23(A)(3)requires GFCI protection at 15 volts or more only for relamping. According to McGraw-Hill, "A GFCI is not required for low-voltage swimming pool lights (12-V units)". So, is it not required because the code section is silent on requiring it?
Lastly, and then I am taking a nap, 680.22(A)(2)states that the required isolation transformers have an ungrounded secondary, and if you could provide a GFCI on the secondary how could you do it without making the situation worse?
The best answers always make the best questions.
Thanks everyone.
Thank-you for your response Ty,
Yes, we are leaning toward holding to the 10' minimum distance. And it is good to hear that there is some agreement with that. But I'm still confused. Many jurisdictions permit it. Industry claims NEC 680 allows it. ETL and UL list them.
Article 411.4 says 10' minimum, except as provided in Article 680. Well, 680 where? 680.23(A)(3)requires GFCI protection at 15 volts or more only for relamping. According to McGraw-Hill, "A GFCI is not required for low-voltage swimming pool lights (12-V units)". So, is it not required because the code section is silent on requiring it?
Lastly, and then I am taking a nap, 680.22(A)(2)states that the required isolation transformers have an ungrounded secondary, and if you could provide a GFCI on the secondary how could you do it without making the situation worse?
The best answers always make the best questions.
Thanks everyone.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
GFCI protection is not required for the lights unless you are installing them between 5' and 10' from the edge. 680.23 has nothing to say about this question, it only applies to under water lights.
Don
GFCI protection is not required for the lights unless you are installing them between 5' and 10' from the edge. 680.23 has nothing to say about this question, it only applies to under water lights.
Don
TOMWELDS
Member
- Location
- Westchester Cty. New York
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
If they are installed between 5 and 10', is there a 24volt rated GFI device? Ive never had this problem but would like to know..could easily happen.
If they are installed between 5 and 10', is there a 24volt rated GFI device? Ive never had this problem but would like to know..could easily happen.
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
Leviton makes a GFI that looks like a CT that you run your load wires through, then it opens a relay on a tirp condition.
2 solutions to the pool lighting rule:
1- Fiber Optics
2- I have seen underwater pool lights installed into hardscape features above ground. This took some teamwork: the manufacturer has to derate the max wattage allowed in the lamp, however, Hydrel, for one, does this already with their "wet/dry series". Your inspector has to be OK with it. You can do this with 12V and 120V systems. The lights I saw were "sidelights" in some niches above the pool, built into a wall. Turned out nice. Today, I would probably lean toward a fiber optic solutino due to fixture size. Even spa fixtures have big lenses.
mike
mike
Leviton makes a GFI that looks like a CT that you run your load wires through, then it opens a relay on a tirp condition.
2 solutions to the pool lighting rule:
1- Fiber Optics
2- I have seen underwater pool lights installed into hardscape features above ground. This took some teamwork: the manufacturer has to derate the max wattage allowed in the lamp, however, Hydrel, for one, does this already with their "wet/dry series". Your inspector has to be OK with it. You can do this with 12V and 120V systems. The lights I saw were "sidelights" in some niches above the pool, built into a wall. Turned out nice. Today, I would probably lean toward a fiber optic solutino due to fixture size. Even spa fixtures have big lenses.
mike
mike
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
Thanks for the response Mike. I agree that fiber optics is the best solution. The more the price comes down the easier our fight will be.
This whole deal is turning into a misapplication of listings. Unique Lighting Systems claims that when you use their aquatic transformer model #360PST or 840PST any lighting fixture in or within 10' of a pool meets Article 680. I have already spoken with a UL rep, and he agrees they are stretching the approval. There is nothing in Article 680 to support this. I still need to speak with ETL about Unique using their listing for "ALL outdoor low-voltage applications". I will leave it up to UL and ETL to help Unique revise their product claims.
Article 411.4 says Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall not be installed within 10' of a pool. Article 680.22(B)(4) says that lighting fixtures installed between 5' and 10' of a pool shall be GFCI protected. There is no exception for low-voltage lighting. Until the code reflects the acceptance of these lights I will not allow them.
Uniques' transformers are listed for underwater fixtures. Their light fixtures are listed for wet locations. Adding the two together does not ease my mind about a pathway light tossed in the pool or the brass framed light embedded in the raised seat wall of a spa.
Thank-you all for your input and advice.
Les Lyons
Thanks for the response Mike. I agree that fiber optics is the best solution. The more the price comes down the easier our fight will be.
This whole deal is turning into a misapplication of listings. Unique Lighting Systems claims that when you use their aquatic transformer model #360PST or 840PST any lighting fixture in or within 10' of a pool meets Article 680. I have already spoken with a UL rep, and he agrees they are stretching the approval. There is nothing in Article 680 to support this. I still need to speak with ETL about Unique using their listing for "ALL outdoor low-voltage applications". I will leave it up to UL and ETL to help Unique revise their product claims.
Article 411.4 says Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall not be installed within 10' of a pool. Article 680.22(B)(4) says that lighting fixtures installed between 5' and 10' of a pool shall be GFCI protected. There is no exception for low-voltage lighting. Until the code reflects the acceptance of these lights I will not allow them.
Uniques' transformers are listed for underwater fixtures. Their light fixtures are listed for wet locations. Adding the two together does not ease my mind about a pathway light tossed in the pool or the brass framed light embedded in the raised seat wall of a spa.
Thank-you all for your input and advice.
Les Lyons
Re: Low voltage path lights at pools
Les,
I should say upfront that I will not use Uniques stuff...their marketing is kind of misleading, and they try to push their "book" on unsuspecting landscape contractors, claiming it is the definitive guide on outdoor LV lighting. Most of their transformers are not properly listed because they have outputs that boost up around 18v for a 12v system to "overcome" voltage drop. UL saying they are stretching their current listing is not surprising to me. As far as I'm concerned, 411.4 is farily clear. We do have to recognize though that there are 12V pool lighting systems available from reputable manufacturers that are listed, Here is one. The difference though, as you have said, is that a pool light is designed to be constantly submersed, while a path light that got pushed into the pool is not. If the transformer shunted 120V to the secondary, there would not be an immediate danger with a pool fixture, while a path light would be lethal.
Do you know if Uniques transfomrers are listed for pool and spa use? If not, they are only suitable for fountains that don't have people in them.
mike
Les,
I should say upfront that I will not use Uniques stuff...their marketing is kind of misleading, and they try to push their "book" on unsuspecting landscape contractors, claiming it is the definitive guide on outdoor LV lighting. Most of their transformers are not properly listed because they have outputs that boost up around 18v for a 12v system to "overcome" voltage drop. UL saying they are stretching their current listing is not surprising to me. As far as I'm concerned, 411.4 is farily clear. We do have to recognize though that there are 12V pool lighting systems available from reputable manufacturers that are listed, Here is one. The difference though, as you have said, is that a pool light is designed to be constantly submersed, while a path light that got pushed into the pool is not. If the transformer shunted 120V to the secondary, there would not be an immediate danger with a pool fixture, while a path light would be lethal.
Do you know if Uniques transfomrers are listed for pool and spa use? If not, they are only suitable for fountains that don't have people in them.
mike
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