LV lighting and Hot tubs

[e57]

Got a plan with GFI fed transformers for LV lighting within reach of an in-ground outdoor custom built hot tub - I threw up a red flag on it siting 411.4....

Any thoughts?????

Any exceptions????

Also has equipment access through a hatch that would be accessed from a very small hatch from above the water line between the water and landscaping.... I imagine someone kneeling on this 18" deck down into a hole next to and above the hot tub for maintenance. Since this is a single family - I assume one would want a disconnect IN there to be within site - while precariously on their knees on a ledge next to the water....

 

[RUWired]

Got a plan with GFI fed transformers for LV lighting within reach of an in-ground outdoor custom built hot tub - I threw up a red flag on it siting 411.4....

...

I think more specifically, is article 680.24(A)2. Minimum is 4' away from water edge and if less than 15 volts can be flush deck. Also 680.11 for equipment in a pit.

Rick

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Got a plan with GFI fed transformers for LV lighting within reach of an in-ground outdoor custom built hot tub - I threw up a red flag on it siting 411.4....

Any thoughts?????

Any exceptions????

Also has equipment access through a hatch that would be accessed from a very small hatch from above the water line between the water and landscaping.... I imagine someone kneeling on this 18" deck down into a hole next to and above the hot tub for maintenance. Since this is a single family - I assume one would want a disconnect IN there to be within site - while precariously on their knees on a ledge next to the water....

That gfi fed transformer only protects the primary not the low volt.

 

[monkey]

What about 680.22(B)(4)? (05NEC). Like Jim said, you can't GFCI protect the LV side.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is an interesting question. Art. 411.4 in 2008 states

(B) Pools, Spas, Fountains, and Similar Locations. Lighting systems shall be installed not less than 3 m (10 ft) horizontally from the nearest edge of the water, unless permitted by Article 680.

Here's the catch art 680 doesn't seem to restrict lv lights from being between 5 and 10 feet from the pool as long as they are GFCI protected.

Art. 680.22(C)(4)
GFCI Protection in Adjacent Areas. Luminaires, lighting outlets, and ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans installed in the area extending between 1.5 m (5 ft) and 3.0 m (10 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter unless installed not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) above the maximum water level and rigidly attached to the structure adjacent to or enclosing the pool.

So I ask how far is within reach. If it is 5 feet or more I say okay, if not it's a no go.

 

[monkey]

This is an interesting question. Art. 411.4 in 2008 states



Here's the catch art 680 doesn't seem to restrict lv lights from being between 5 and 10 feet from the pool as long as they are GFCI protected.



So I ask how far is within reach. If it is 5 feet or more I say okay, if not it's a no go.

So how do you GFCI protect the low voltage lights??

 

[quogueelectric]

I live in the land of no. No no no no no............................................... Lawsuits!

 

[monkey]

Here is my interpertation:

1. No lighting fixtures are allowed within 5 feet of the water.

2. Lighting fixtures within 10 feet of the water must be GFCI protected.

3. It is not possible to put GFCI protection on low voltage lights, only the transformer.

4. Conclusion: Only GFCI protected line voltage lights are allowed in the 5-10 foot area.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Here is my interpertation:

1. No lighting fixtures are allowed within 5 feet of the water.

2. Lighting fixtures within 10 feet of the water must be GFCI protected.

3. It is not possible to put GFCI protection on low voltage lights, only the transformer.

4. Conclusion: Only GFCI protected line voltage lights are allowed in the 5-10 foot area.

Never see a light in a pool or hot tub ?

 

[stickboy1375]

Swimming pool lighting

Sec. 411-4(2) defers to Art. 680 on the use of this lighting within 10 ft of a pool, spa, or fountain. This turns out to be quite complicated. Sec. 680-6(b)(1) generally allows fixtures to be as near as 5 ft to a pool (but no closer unless at least 12 ft above the water level). However, there are additional requirements that apply to fixtures closer than 10 ft. Both Sec. 680-6(b)(2) for lighting in the 5-10 ft zone, and the two exceptions to Sec. 680-6(b)(1) that allow closer distances for existing lighting and for indoor pools 7 1/2 ft or more above the water level require GFCI protection for such fixtures.

As noted in Fig. 2, GFCI devices as presently listed won't operate on a circuit with two ungrounded conductors. Therefore, these lighting systems are excluded between the 5-ft to the 10-ft radius around a pool unless the fixtures are rigidly attached to a structure at a point at least 5 ft above the maximum water level. They cannot be run at all, even on an existing structure, closer than 5 ft from the pool.

Nevertheless, we do see these lights used closer to swimming pools. These lights aren't installed under the provisions of Art. 411. This type of lighting operates on Class 2 power-limited circuits evaluated for wet-contact applications. Therefore, you install this type of lighting using listed Class 2 power supplies that typically don't exceed 75VA.

 

[e57]

First I should have said this is for a buddy of mine....

What about 680.22(B)(4)? (05NEC). Like Jim said, you can't GFCI protect the LV side.

B-4 is "Indoor" lighting

Never see a light in a pool or hot tub ?

Most of these are listed wet niche fixtures and with prefab tubs listed with the tub - and recently low ball-low grade fiber optic. My current project has double digit K'$ for fiber landscape lighting even closer to a pool - I don't think my freind wants to spend the equivelent of a Harvard education for a few lights next to his hot tub.

This type of lighting operates on Class 2 power-limited circuits evaluated for wet-contact applications. Therefore, you install this type of lighting using listed Class 2 power supplies that typically don't exceed 75VA.

Sounds sneakily like LED's to me.....

So anyway.... My buddies Arch. sent me a neat picure today - of a hot tub - with a skirt surround, and in the skirt were glass brick blocks with the lighting behind those.... I really like the idea!!! No exposed fixture or conductive parts, and technically would be in the equipment area of the tub - under the skirt. Of course any (120) lighting or equipment that close would need GFI protection, and be bonded with the slab and motor.... What say you????

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Of course any (120) lighting or equipment that close would need GFI protection, and be bonded with the slab and motor.... What say you????

Sounds like a good idea as long as there is enough light coming thru the blocks. Oh yeah, I think it is code compliant also.