jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
I know where we stand on romex but can we bundle several ,lets say 20 runs of MC for 4 or 5 feet ?
Code referance if possible.
Code referance if possible.
M C CABLE BUNDLING
- Thread starter jimwalker
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ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
310.15(B)(2)(a), exception 5
310.15(B)(2)(a), exception 5
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
Ryan thanks,i picked 20 as just a rough number.We got told not to do this on one job but same thing is passing on a job i am on now.Just how do we rate 12-4 ? can we not count the neutral since it is 3 phase ? Seems odd that they picked 20
Ryan thanks,i picked 20 as just a rough number.We got told not to do this on one job but same thing is passing on a job i am on now.Just how do we rate 12-4 ? can we not count the neutral since it is 3 phase ? Seems odd that they picked 20
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
Jim,
Note that the exception states 20 conductors, not 20 cables. When you exceed 20 current carrying conductors, you must apply a 60% adjustment factor. As far as the neutral being a current carrying conductor, I think the you use the rule in 310.15(B)(4)(c).
Don
Jim,
Note that the exception states 20 conductors, not 20 cables. When you exceed 20 current carrying conductors, you must apply a 60% adjustment factor. As far as the neutral being a current carrying conductor, I think the you use the rule in 310.15(B)(4)(c).
Don
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
Bundling is an issue when there are more than 9 current carrying conductors together for more than 24 in.I think Jim is reffering to 4/grnd mc
one neutral so 4 current carriers.That would be 2 of these cable assemblies any more would be bundling,4 + 4 = 8 so thats the limit.
Bundling is an issue when there are more than 9 current carrying conductors together for more than 24 in.I think Jim is reffering to 4/grnd mc
one neutral so 4 current carriers.That would be 2 of these cable assemblies any more would be bundling,4 + 4 = 8 so thats the limit.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
Alan there is a specific exception for 12/2 MC and AC cables, you can bundle up to 20 current-carrying conductors before derating.
Alan there is a specific exception for 12/2 MC and AC cables, you can bundle up to 20 current-carrying conductors before derating.
Kind of makes me glad I use MC much of the time.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
We are seeing very few jobs in emt anymore.Cost is far less but quality is suffering.Price seems to be only thing we care about anymore.
We are seeing very few jobs in emt anymore.Cost is far less but quality is suffering.Price seems to be only thing we care about anymore.
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
Jim,
Are you talking about the appearance of the finished product, (which has no bearing on the quality of the conductors) or a cable assembly being inferior wiring?
Roger
[ October 11, 2004, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
Jim,
please elaborate.
Are you talking about the appearance of the finished product, (which has no bearing on the quality of the conductors) or a cable assembly being inferior wiring?
Roger
[ October 11, 2004, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
[ October 11, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
Whats wrong with Romex or some other premade cable? Its perfectly acceptable and well proven wiring method. Why spend more then you have to? I'd be willing to bet there are far fewer hiccups with the premade cabling systems then with EMT.
[ October 11, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
I am talking about looks as well as ease to add or change circuits
I am talking about looks as well as ease to add or change circuits
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
Jim,
Most of the cable would be concealed, and the ease of adding a circuit is most likely not a consideration in the original design or value engineering.
You are right in that money plays a big part of it, but it plays a big part in everything, it doesn't mean a more economical way of achieving an end is a sacrifice in quality.
Roger
Jim,
I don't see how this pertains to quality.
Most of the cable would be concealed, and the ease of adding a circuit is most likely not a consideration in the original design or value engineering.
You are right in that money plays a big part of it, but it plays a big part in everything, it doesn't mean a more economical way of achieving an end is a sacrifice in quality.
Roger
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
ok given a choice of emt or mc for same price ,what would you pick ?
ok given a choice of emt or mc for same price ,what would you pick ?
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
As an installer I would pick cable, as a customer somebody would have to give me a reason as to why a lesser labor intensive installation is going to cost me the same as the more labor intensive installation.
How does this equate to quality? Just answer in a simple explanation as to why you feel the quality of wiring is compromised, (not appearance or convinience) please.
Roger
As an installer I would pick cable, as a customer somebody would have to give me a reason as to why a lesser labor intensive installation is going to cost me the same as the more labor intensive installation.
How does this equate to quality? Just answer in a simple explanation as to why you feel the quality of wiring is compromised, (not appearance or convinience) please.
Roger
elektrafried
Member
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
You would lose that bet I think.I have never had to tear a wall out to fix a piece of emt because of a sheet rock screw or nail.It is also a lot easier to replace a conductor in emt,which naturally goes to convenience and not quality.As far as quality goes,I suppose it doesn't matter which medium the conductor uses to get to where it's going,either one is going to be concealed in the wall.My opinion,MC is loved by Contractors because you can hire anyone to pull it,they have to know NOTHING about electrical work except how to strap it.That equals cheap labor,labor that I have to deal with,not the Contractor,the Engineer or the Inspectors.Journeyman/apprentice ratios are a thing of the past in many localities.Pride in your work is becoming a thing of the past with the new generation.I'm sure the 'old timers' said the same thing when I was starting the trade.I been here for 25 years watching it in the field,I feel I am very qualified to make these observations.MC is fine but the job that has to be installed in conduit,be it rigid or emt is better if nothing else because the guys who put it in more than likely knew how to do electrical work.Like I said in another post,I just had to fix several shorts on a job because of MC digging into the conductor,NEVER had to do that with EMT.
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
I feel the same way. I'm only 25 but It's easy to tell when someone put pride into their work. And easier when they didn't. I make it a point on every job no matter how small. Bought the Jack Benfield guide on bending so when I have to work with emt or ridged it looks good and fits right. Personally I'd like seeing a good pipe job, just looks a hell of a lot more professional.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
Fried
Every method has it's pros and cons, it all boils down to the installer. In the 30 years that I have in building construction, I have seen a trend, in general, of a lack in pride in what one does. Don't get me wrong, there are still some A-1 people in this industry, but there is a large influx of some who just don't give a 'hoot'.
I believe that the proper training in this industry is what is needed to help turn this trend around. Not just training in the electrical aspect, but training the men/women to understand what pride is. What the risks the employer takes everyday are. How his/her productivity can not only help the industry, but also increase their ability to earn more money.
Fried
Every method has it's pros and cons, it all boils down to the installer. In the 30 years that I have in building construction, I have seen a trend, in general, of a lack in pride in what one does. Don't get me wrong, there are still some A-1 people in this industry, but there is a large influx of some who just don't give a 'hoot'.
I believe that the proper training in this industry is what is needed to help turn this trend around. Not just training in the electrical aspect, but training the men/women to understand what pride is. What the risks the employer takes everyday are. How his/her productivity can not only help the industry, but also increase their ability to earn more money.
elektrafried
Member
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
Well said,and I agree.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
I am not so sure that training is the answer. Its all good and well to train people to do things right, but that does not mean much when the reailities of cost and competition come into play.
I don't especially like it, but I'm beginning to come to grips with the idea that the bare minimum is what we are going to have to learn to deal with. As long as it is safe, and servicable, I guess we have to accept it.
I am not so sure that training is the answer. Its all good and well to train people to do things right, but that does not mean much when the reailities of cost and competition come into play.
I don't especially like it, but I'm beginning to come to grips with the idea that the bare minimum is what we are going to have to learn to deal with. As long as it is safe, and servicable, I guess we have to accept it.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: M C CABLE BUNDLING
If the job is safe and serviceable, what is really wrong with it and how much are you willing to pay just to have it look pretty? After the drywall is installed, which one will look the best? Which one will cost the least? Which one is easier to pull in new wires or cable? How long will the installation last before new circuits have to be installed? Is the installation safe?
All of those questions have to be answered by the person that is paying the bill and the engineer that is designing the job. Only after those questions are answered can the job be designed in the most cost effective way. It is up to the electrical contractor to make the installation be Code compliant which will make the job safe after he has found that he is the low bidder.
I don't like the tone of that statement. I agree that it is important to take pride in your work; however, just because an MC or AC job doesn't look as pretty as and EMT or IMC job doesn't make it bad.
If the job is safe and serviceable, what is really wrong with it and how much are you willing to pay just to have it look pretty? After the drywall is installed, which one will look the best? Which one will cost the least? Which one is easier to pull in new wires or cable? How long will the installation last before new circuits have to be installed? Is the installation safe?
All of those questions have to be answered by the person that is paying the bill and the engineer that is designing the job. Only after those questions are answered can the job be designed in the most cost effective way. It is up to the electrical contractor to make the installation be Code compliant which will make the job safe after he has found that he is the low bidder.
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