Main disconnect in panel in bathroom: When does the "grandfather" no longer apply?

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buckyswider

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Main disconnect in panel in bathroom: When does the "grandfather" no longer apply?

Hi all, consulting for a friend who is looking to buy a new home, and his inspector has him spooked.

House was built in 1940s. Basement bathroom (with shower)/laundry room also houses the main disconnect / panel.

Seems like this was all OK prior to 1993, so the house predates the prohibition. (Were the toilet/basin/shower in place before 1993? Who knows. The look modern-ish, but may have been replacement fixtures).

There's also some AL circuits in the panel. Inspector thinks they need to be ripped and replaced (why I'm not sure; I think as long as all the devices on the circuits are rated for AL, then there's no need to replace ?)

So here's the rub: prospective buyer is being told that an electrician could not, in fact, replace the AL circuit with CU since the panel is non-conforming with current code. This doesn't sound correct to me- doesn't seem to meet the standard of a 'remodel'.

So, to loop it all back to my thread title: what is bar that must be crossed to be considered a 'remodel' which would require relocation of the panel?

Thanks!
 
Service upgrade or over-50% of the house renovation.

What inspector? A home inspector carries no clout.
 
This thread was temporarily moved out of the open forum area, while the moderators discussed whether we are looking at a DIY situation. Based on a PM I received from the OP, I believe it is not. This thread is asking about the rule book. The OP will not be doing any of the related installation or renovation work.

I offer the OP my apologies for the delay and the inconvenience.
 
LarryFine said:
What inspector? A home inspector carries no clout.
Click to expand...
In a PM, the OP told me this was a "home inspector." The OP's friend is a prospective buyer, and there is something of a bidding war in progress. So he is looking for any justification for not telling the seller to perform this, that, and the other electrical work as a condition of the sale.

What I don't know is who hired the HI. That could impact negotiations with the seller.

 
To directly answer the original question, that which is conversationally called the "grandfather rule" is actually article 80.9(B), "Existing Installations." It is located in an unenforceable Annex ("Informational Annex H") at the back of the code book. What it says is essentially that if an existing installation does not comply with the current code requirements, it can be allowed to continue in use, unless the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) deems that it "presents an imminent danger to occupants."

It is commonly believed, incorrectly as it turns out, that the non-conforming condition had to have been in compliance with the version of the code that was in effect when it was built. But the words of 80.9(B) do not require that.

So my initial response to the HI's statements would be that the presence of a panel in a bathroom does not need to be corrected, and nor does the use of aluminum wire. Keep in mind that the HI is not, Not, NOT the AHJ, and can make no enforceable judgments.
 
charlie b said:
To directly answer the original question, that which is conversationally called the "grandfather rule" is actually article 80.9(B), "Existing Installations." It is located in an unenforceable Annex ("Informational Annex H") at the back of the code book. What it says is essentially that if an existing installation does not comply with the current code requirements, it can be allowed to continue in use, unless the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) deems that it "presents an imminent danger to occupants."

It is commonly believed, incorrectly as it turns out, that the non-conforming condition had to have been in compliance with the version of the code that was in effect when it was built. But the words of 80.9(B) do not require that.

So my initial response to the HI's statements would be that the presence of a panel in a bathroom does not need to be corrected, and nor does the use of aluminum wire. Keep in mind that the HI is not, Not, NOT the AHJ, and can make no enforceable judgments.
Click to expand...

Around here, the city inspectors would make the homeowners move the panel to a Code-compliant location. This being coupled with the fact that AL wiring is present, it would be best to rewire the entire house to current Code. That would be the first thing I would do.
 
buckyswider said:
Hi all, consulting for a friend who is looking to buy a new home, and his inspector has him spooked.

House was built in 1940s. Basement bathroom (with shower)/laundry room also houses the main disconnect / panel.
There's also some AL circuits in the panel. Inspector thinks they need to be ripped and replaced .
Click to expand...

As long as your friend doesn't care about the panel in the bathroom or the AL wiring the house can be sold in any condition.

The lender may not be as happy about lending money on the property once the report is disclosed.

The home inspector has to write stuff like this up but that doesn't mean you have to do anything about it.
 
Thanks everyone! And a special thanks to Charlie B for letting this thread remain.

The update is that I was pretty much able to talk him off the ledge, and his hesitancy resulted in the seller knocking $2K off of the sale price! He walked through with a contractor today who estimated about $4K to separate the bathroom into "bathroom" and "laundry/electrical panel" rooms. Not sure if he's gonna do that, however. The panel seems new-ish (I'm guessing that was done below the line, as from what I'm reading here it couldn't be replaced and inspected in the spot that it's in) and not subject to any rust (which was the reason for the 1993 prohibition). I did strongly advise him, however, to have an electrician come in and check all the devices that are on the 2 AL circuits (turns out that's all there were). Maybe I'm being too anal, but this is something that is set up for failure, as someone may replace an outlet or a switch without considering if the devices are rated for AL. Am I being too overcautious here?

Jeff, at what juncture would an inspector require the panel to be moved? Does your jurisdiction require inspections at house sales, or would this just be when other work is being done that requires inspection, regardless of the magnitude of the work?

Thanks again guys.
 
What are the circuits on Al wire? Larger circuits like ranges, dryers, and air conditioners are found on Al quite frequently still.

I wouldn't put a panel in a bathroom (or clothes closet, etc) but I'm not going to make people freak out about the ones that are already there, either.
 
MAC702 said:
What are the circuits on Al wire? Larger circuits like ranges, dryers, and air conditioners are found on Al quite frequently still.
Click to expand...
Agreed and are of no concern.

Roger
 
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