Main lug panel

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liquidtite

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Ny
If you have a mainlugpanel that is feed with a two pole breaker not using the lugs.could you use the open lugs to feed anouther panel as long as your conductors are sized to the two pole breaker that the panel is backfeed from?
 
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infinity

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Yes, the conductors and the bus rating of the second panel would need to be greater than or equal to the size of the OCPD.
 

Little Bill

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Tennessee NEC:2017
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Yes, the conductors and the bus rating of the second panel would need to be greater than or equal to the size of the OCPD.

Yes, assuming the second panel is rated for the breaker feeding it. Lugs also. Calculated load also.

Just a thought...but if the other added panel is a MB panel, then it could be a lesser rated panel..no?

This is the same as using a panel with feed through lugs too, IMO.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Any conductor leaving said bus is a feeder as long as the overcurrent protection of that conductor does not exceed the conductor ampacity. There is no limit on length of the feeder. If the conductor leaving that bus has less ampacity then the protective device then it is a feeder tap and rules in 240.21 will determine what sizes and lengths are permitted to be used. If it is outdoors, there is no limitation on length of feeder taps.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
A feeder as defined by the NEC is the conductors that have OCPD's at its supply end and feeds OCPD's at its load end.

tap rules are for conductors that tap onto a feeder that exceeds the rating of the tap conductor, for indoors the tap conductors can be 1/10 the rating of the feeder protection if the tap conductors have a total length of 10' or less, and 1/3 the rating of the feeder protection if 25' or less, outdoors there is no limit on the length but they still have to be 1/3 the rating of the feeder circuit.

If the conductors are rated for the OCPD for the feeders then this is not a tap and is just an extension of the feeders.

Also keep in mind the tap conductors have to have OCP at the load end of the tap, using a main breaker panel can solve this or back feeding a breaker in the panel the tap conductors feed, since most panels will have a 100 amp rating, if the first panel is fed via a 100 amp circuit then many just run conductors rated for the 100 amps to the second panel, this would not be a tap as it is just an extension of the feeder circuit, so there is no length limitation as there would be for taps, as well as since the panel is rated for the 100 amps then the feeder protection can serve as the OCPD for the 100 amp panel, doing this just makes the tap rules go away.
 

liquidtite

Senior Member
Location
Ny
Yes, the conductors and the bus rating of the second panel would need to be greater than or equal to the size of the OCPD.

So the nec does permit conductors to have Ocp set at a value that exceeds its ampacity as long as you follow the tap rules?
 

liquidtite

Senior Member
Location
Ny
A feeder as defined by the NEC is the conductors that have OCPD's at its supply end and feeds OCPD's at its load end.

tap rules are for conductors that tap onto a feeder that exceeds the rating of the tap conductor, for indoors the tap conductors can be 1/10 the rating of the feeder protection if the tap conductors have a total length of 10' or less, and 1/3 the rating of the feeder protection if 25' or less, outdoors there is no limit on the length but they still have to be 1/3 the rating of the feeder circuit.

If the conductors are rated for the OCPD for the feeders then this is not a tap and is just an extension of the feeders.

Also keep in mind the tap conductors have to have OCP at the load end of the tap, using a main breaker panel can solve this or back feeding a breaker in the panel the tap conductors feed, since most panels will have a 100 amp rating, if the first panel is fed via a 100 amp circuit then many just run conductors rated for the 100 amps to the second panel, this would not be a tap as it is just an extension of the feeder circuit, so there is no length limitation as there would be for taps, as well as since the panel is rated for the 100 amps then the feeder protection can serve as the OCPD for the 100 amp panel, doing this just makes the tap rules go away.

Thanks you really help me understand the tap rule .why does the nec allow you to size the conductors less than the Ocp , if you stay under 25' & 10' .how does this not result in the insulation being burnt up
 

GoldDigger

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Thanks you really help me understand the tap rule .why does the nec allow you to size the conductors less than the Ocp , if you stay under 25' & 10' .how does this not result in the insulation being burnt up
The reasoning is that the conductors will be protected against long term overloads by the OCPD at the far end, while bolted or near-bolted faults will still trip the higher OCPD which is feeding the tap.
The only thing that should be able to overstress the tap wires should be a fault in the tap wires themselves.
As the length of wire run indoors increases, the code makers are less confident that there will not be an exceptional occurrence that will cause problems. If the wires are outdoors, there is no length limit since there is little risk of damage to structures or property even in those cases.
 

infinity

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New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
So the nec does permit conductors to have Ocp set at a value that exceeds its ampacity as long as you follow the tap rules?

Yes. Since the tap conductor will terminate to an OCPD they will be protected from overload beyond the OCPD. The larger OCPD ahead of the tap conductors will provide short circuit and ground fault protection for the limited length of tap conductor.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
outdoors there is no limit on the length but they still have to be 1/3 the rating of the feeder circuit

Please tell us where you get that requirement from. It is not in 240.21(B)(5), and the conditions of (B)(2) have nothing to do with (B)(5) that I can see.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Please tell us where you get that requirement from. It is not in 240.21(B)(5), and the conditions of (B)(2) have nothing to do with (B)(5) that I can see.

You are correct, the 1/3rd rule doesn't apply for outside installations, I should have read 240.21(B)(5) a little more closely, Thanks for keeping me on my toes,:p

I have no idea why I though it also applied to outside runs:ashamed:

Guess I have to blame it on my OFS (Old Farts Syndrome) :lol:
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Thanks you really help me understand the tap rule .why does the nec allow you to size the conductors less than the Ocp , if you stay under 25' & 10' .how does this not result in the insulation being burnt up

No problem as that is what we are here for.

Just to add a little to what others have said, we have two types of protection that we use to protect conductors, and we see this when we apply the rules in 240.4(D) that allow us to follow different rules for tap conductors (e) and motors or other installations listed in (G) such as air conditioner condensers where we can have a #12 awg with a 40 amp breaker on it where we wire for the minimum and protect for the max circuit on the A/C unit label, this is because motors and A/C units being a single fixed load will have overloads at the end of the circuit that will protect the conductors from over loads, while the breaker at the supply end will protect the conductors from short circuits whether they are a line to line or ground fault, we use this allowance so the the start up current of motors which is the lock rotor current many times the normal run current don't trip the breaker when a motor starts but are of such short duration that the conductors are not damaged.

Breakers have two protection modes, one is for overloads which are a long term over loading of the conductors when to much current is being drawn from the end loads which can cause the conductor to exceed the insulation safe temperature rating and can cause the insulation to fail.

The second mode if called the instantaneous rating which is a magnetic pick up that is fast acting when the circuit exceeds this pickup level, this pick up can be hundreds of amps higher then the rating on the breaker, but is designed to open the breaker within a few cycles so the conductors do not have time to heat up to the point of damaging the insulation which is up to 5 cycles, we can see this protection when we look at the protection curve for a given breaker, a bolted fault line to line or to ground will produce hundreds of amps if available, the only thing that limits this is the impedance or resistance of the circuit as resistance is current limiting, this is why if the circuit is to long the time for the breaker to open will be longer and can exceed the safe rating of a conductor so all this must be taken into account when selecting the right size conductor for a given circuit, the NEC tends to error on the side of safety to prevent this from being exceeded but there are some cases you must do the calculations yourself to make sure the length of the conductor will still allow the breaker to be able to protect it in the case of over loads or short circuit ground fault.

Some online voltage drop calculators will warn you if you exceed this when you use it, here is one such calculator that does:
http://www.electrician2.com/calculators/vd_calculator.html

A little side effect of this instantaneous rating of breakers is why we some times see the 100 amp main on a house trip when a 30 amp circuit is faulted when available fault current is high enough to exceed both breakers instantaneous ratings.

so knowing this helps us understand why the NEC doesn't allow us to use undersized conductors on circuits that the end load can not be controlled such as receptacles or lightning circuits or other loads such as motors that don't have overload protection, it only allows it on the loads in 240.4 (E) or (G)'s list where the articles in the list allow it, because these loads are a fixed current amount and protected by overloads at the load end of the circuit that will not allow the circuit to be over loaded.
 
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