MAXING OUT PANEL WITH SPACE SAVER BREAKERS?

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green2012

Member
Location
highland park, il
I have an old 100 amp pushmatic panel. Is there anything in the code about maxing out the panel in spacesavers? The panel already has about 5 space savers installed. They are blowing fuses in thier kitchen and bedroom and would like to recircuit thise to rooms. They want to add 1 new circuit per room. Is there any danger with using spacesavers? They are pretty much at thier max capacity. They have a 50amp double oven, a 30 amp dryer, a 30 amp to thier A/c. They dont want to spend the money to upgrade and the village were they live wont let them rep[lace the panel without upgrading. thoughts?
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
green2012 said:
I have an old 100 amp pushmatic panel. Is there anything in the code about maxing out the panel in spacesavers? The panel already has about 5 space savers installed. They are blowing fuses in thier kitchen and bedroom and would like to recircuit thise to rooms. They want to add 1 new circuit per room. Is there any danger with using spacesavers? They are pretty much at thier max capacity. They have a 50amp double oven, a 30 amp dryer, a 30 amp to thier A/c. They dont want to spend the money to upgrade and the village were they live wont let them rep[lace the panel without upgrading. thoughts?
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Even if you can put in the breakers you wish you have a couple issues here. First one is AFCI requirements. Pushmatic replacements are expensive as is let alone what would an AFCI version cost if one was made (I don't think anyone makes one for this panel)

If AFCI is not an issue or even if we ignore it - you can put in a sub panel and feed quite a few circuits for less cost than the breakers you are looking for will cost, might be even less if the panel has sub feed lugs, seems like many of the pushmatics did have subfeed lugs.
 
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jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
You should not install more circuits than the panel was designed and listed for.
The label in the panel will say how many bus locations can take the 'space saving' breakers.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
jim dungar said:
You should not install more circuits than the panel was designed and listed for.
The label in the panel will say how many bus locations can take the 'space saving' breakers.
Click to expand...

The pushmatics were discontinued a long enough time ago there may not have been limitations IDK. If they still made those panels today they would have limitations as well as likely some mechanical method of rejecting "space savers" where they are not intended to be installed.
 
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green2012

Member
Location
highland park, il
They dont have AFCI and they arent requiring me to install them with a service upgrade. I was told that I would need to replace the bedroom circuit breakers with AFCI only if there is rewiring on a larger scale. There is shared nuetral for all the rooms on second floor. 2 bedrooms 2 baths and the hall. I would need to break the bathrooms off the circuit in order to install AFCI's. All they are doing is running a new circuit to the hall outlets and a desk. Is this wrong information?
 
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jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
kwired said:
The pushmatics were discontinued a long enough time ago there may not have been limitations IDK. If they still made those panels today they would have limitations as well as likely some mechanical method of rejecting "space savers" where they are not intended to be installed.
Click to expand...
Circuit Limitation (UL's CTL) was around back in the 60's, about the time Pushmaics were introduced. But even prior to the CTL rejection feature, the panels were still Listed with a specific number of circuits.
 
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rt66electric

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma
residential loads

residential loads

most 100 amp panel failure ....

I observe the connected load of the house.
It's 110 deg outside is a factor.
Panel box on the westward sun exposure.

Major factors are.
A/C greater than 3 ton or grater than 30amp disco
ELECTRIC HOT water.....
ELECTRIC dryer.
Square footage
Also consider family energy hog usage -vs- little-ol-lady

Any brand of 100 amp panel will fail over time.
Put 2-tons of load on a half-ton truck, it will run for a while, downhill.
Put 1/2 ton load on a 1-ton truck . it will run a long time.

You are not doing the customer a favor by poor-boy-ing.
If you add circuits and the OLD Panel fails, The next electrician gets the $$ for the emergency change out/upgrade on a 110deg saturday. (I know, I've done several)
recomend that the 200amp upgrade is the first step, and walk away.
 
JP490440

JP490440

Member
Location
NW Oklahoma
In my own house I had a old school box with screw in fuses. I set a new 200 amp main panel in the basement and sub fed the old panel with a 100a breaker.

I aslo pulled new wire to all of the large electrical equipment and put it in the new panel along with any gfi?s I needed. Afci?s weren?t an issue back then.

SO maybe you could sell them a larger service and main panel, sub feed the old one, move some of the big stuff off the old one. Pull a few new circuits for gfi,afci and still not have to rewire the whole house.
 
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GerryB

Senior Member
Location
woodbridge, ct. USA
green2012 said:
I have an old 100 amp pushmatic panel. Is there anything in the code about maxing out the panel in spacesavers? The panel already has about 5 space savers installed. They are blowing fuses in thier kitchen and bedroom and would like to recircuit thise to rooms. They want to add 1 new circuit per room. Is there any danger with using spacesavers? They are pretty much at thier max capacity. They have a 50amp double oven, a 30 amp dryer, a 30 amp to thier A/c. They dont want to spend the money to upgrade and the village were they live wont let them rep[lace the panel without upgrading. thoughts?
Click to expand...

When you say village do you mean a condo or something? Why won't they let you upgrade just the panel, if it is 100 amps. As was mentioned you are better off with a sub panel, but if they won't allow you to change the panel then can you even add a sub panel?
 
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green2012

Member
Location
highland park, il
By village I mean suburb. The suburb says that if the home is larger then 2000 sq foot then they must have a 200 amp panel. They are "grandfathered in" at the moment, but the moment they touch it they have to upgrade. There is already a sub panel fed off the lugs at the bottom of the bus. Does that count toward the max number of circuits listed for the panel?
 
jxofaltrds

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
green2012 said:
By village I mean suburb. The suburb says that if the home is larger then 2000 sq foot then they must have a 200 amp panel. They are "grandfathered in" at the moment, but the moment they touch it they have to upgrade. There is already a sub panel fed off the lugs at the bottom of the bus. Does that count toward the max number of circuits listed for the panel?
Click to expand...

OK. Is it codified?
 
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green2012

Member
Location
highland park, il
Yes. They wont allow a permit to be drawn for anything less then the upgraded panel. Its Law. I noticed the sub panel the other day (its 2 rooms away) not fed from a breaker. Fed directly from the bus lugs at the bottom. Do those circuits fed from the sub panel count toward the max circuit number since they arent fed from a breaker?
 
jxofaltrds

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
green2012 said:
Yes. They wont allow a permit to be drawn for anything less then the upgraded panel. Its Law. I noticed the sub panel the other day (its 2 rooms away) not fed from a breaker. Fed directly from the bus lugs at the bottom. Do those circuits fed from the sub panel count toward the max circuit number since they arent fed from a breaker?
Click to expand...

They do not count. Your bigger problem my be how this "sub" is fed.

I'll bet 3-wire. If so they will make you change that also.

They may require you to add other things like smokes.
 
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