19clapshaw82
New member
My question is can an insulated throat mc connector like a 38ast be used on mc without a anti short bushing
mc connectors
- Thread starter 19clapshaw82
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Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
The reason anti-short bushings (redheads) are not required for MC, is the design of the fittings for MC are such that when the MC cable is properly installed with the fitting, the fitting will provide the protection necessary.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
I agree with the above. Also, check out the FAQ on this, but bear in mind: you will use antishorts on iwire's jobs, or you will go home.19clapshaw82 said:
Pierre C Belarge said:
I agree that it's not required but I don't agree with your assessment. . The fitting only provides protection for the conductor insulation against the rounded fitting edge. . It provides no protection against the freshly cut jagged edge of the MC jacket itself.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Not trying to start anything BUT how does that make a difference in the requirement issue? Or are you one of the many that would like to see antishorts in MC?
JUST CURIOUS
Antishorts, I prefer my men wear long pants to work, but I am not a members of the radical ANTISHORTS
georgestolz said:I agree with the above. Also, check out the FAQ on this, but bear in mind: you will use antishorts on iwire's jobs, or you will go home.
Notice how they try to explain their position.
"The design of these fittings may or may not include an insulated throat however, they are required to be provided with a smooth, rounded end stop so that the metal sheath of the cable will not pass through and the wires will not be damaged in passing over the end stop."
"..... smooth, rounded end stop so that the metal sheath of the cable will not ....." will not ! will not what ? come in contact with the insulation ? . No ! . So that the jagged end of the metal sheath "..... will not pass through ....." and stick into the box. . I'm glad the jagged edge isn't sticking into the box but that's not the same thing as resolving the jagged edge cutting into the insulation outside of the box inside the connector.
"..... will not pass through and the wires will not be damaged in passing over the end stop.". . Will not be damaged passing over the factory molded rounded end stop. . That's all very nice, protecting the insulation from the rounded end stop, but we'll just ignore the cut edge of the jacket.
Did a politician write that paragraph ?
brian john said:
Requirement ?
It doesn't make a difference. . The requirement isn't there which means it isn't there.
"Or are you one of the many that would like to see antishorts in MC?"
Nah ! . Just put me down as being a supporter of gouging the insulation with the cut jacket edge. . Let it short out and blow ! . I love fireworks ! . July 4th is great ! . If we get enough sparking then we'll have reason to add AFCIs to commercial circuits. . Why bother fixing the problem when you can just throw more money at it and they follow up with service calls for AFCI tripping ?
"a member of the radical ANTISHORTS"
I like it !!! . I can add that to my PSECI credentials !
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
I could not believe that anitshorts were not required when I first saw MC. BUT one on the primary functions I perform for this company is investigating neutral ground issues, to date I have seen none with MC. I have seen plenty with BX with and without anti shorts, mostly hacksaw cuts and BX connector screws piercing the insulation. Not saying it ain't going to happen, just have not seen to date.
brian john said:
When I go into a commercial project for an inspection and I see something like a 4"x4" or 6"x6" drywall patch above or below a box, I go over and take a peek. . When I see black powder streaks inside the box, I know what happened.
"the primary functions I perform for this company is investigating neutral ground issues"
When they blow a hole in a 12gauge wire do you think they:
A) call you for an investigation
or
B) just cut the wall open, do whatever it takes to repair it, and patch it up ?
Do you think they tell anybody that they used time and material to repair something on the backend instead of taking 2 seconds to slide in a plastic sleave on the frontend ?
Once the wall gets tapped and painted, noone knows what happened ..... unless the short comes later on.
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stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
David, are you saying your against people that dont use anti-shorts? :grin:
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
NO, what I tell people is, when there is a short in a phase/energized/ "HOT LEG" to ground the CB trips, the electrician corrects this error/mistake and the site is returned to normal operation, NONE THE WORSE (ok maybe some CB damage and conductor insulation stress due to the fault current).
BUT when the neutral/grounded conductor is intentionally or accidentally shorted to ground I can and do locate it. So phase to ground shorts are repaired, neutral shorts exist till the date someone decides for what ever reason to address the issue, SO I get to see every branch circuit neutral in the whole facility not just one smoked box. All I can tell you is.
There may be a lot of bad electricians in your area. (They may need classes in preparing MC cable)
You are more susceptible to black spots in 4X4's.
You need to be on a code making panel.
Oh and to your question Do they call me. MANY TIMES THEY DO, GFP trips, bad coordination with multiple CB operations or only certain upstream OCP devices operating, SO YES.
I'm not arguing with you, heck I agreed with you early on, but I just stated the facts as I have seen them, and I have a lot of experience in branch circuit testing. We are often contracted to megger neutrals and phase conductors on all branch circuit panels (along with all distribution equipment) as part of the acceptance testing for large facilities that are wired with a variety of methods and MC is the prevalent method in use today.
Would I make you use antishorts with MC, well when I am king I might, till then, if you can't live with it suggest code changes, or do as some inspectors (few and far between but some do) do, make your own code rules.
See what you need to do is make them hire a testing company to find those shorts prior to energizing, thus employing more testers and promoting electrical testing.
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electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
i use redheads whenever i use MC. and i make my helpers use them too and if they dont they go clean the truck
a common practice around here is taking electrical tape and wrapping the end of it and using a romex connector. thats pretty hack in my opinion
a common practice around here is taking electrical tape and wrapping the end of it and using a romex connector. thats pretty hack in my opinion
- Location
- Logan, Utah
electricalperson said:
I have seen that as well. Not only is it hack but it is a violation to use a fitting not listed for use with MC cable. Also if you wrap the outside of the MC cable with black tape then the sheath of the cable is not longer grounded and bonded.
Chris
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Especially since a 2-screw romex connector and a 2-screw MC connector are within a penny of each other in price.electricalperson said:
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
dnem said:
This is another question of "above and beyond". I won't use MC w/o redheads. I do alot of machinery maintenance. I am a HUGE fan of bushings, redheads, cushioning. We don't service equipment with the intent for it to last for five years. Fifteen sounds more legit. I use anti-shorts and tape them. I like to use Arlington's push on's where not required. I also turn everything off in my house when not in use. Maybe I need help
brantmacga
Señor Member
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Former Child
76nemo said:This is another question of "above and beyond". I won't use MC w/o redheads. I do alot of machinery maintenance. I am a HUGE fan of bushings, redheads, cushioning. We don't service equipment with the intent for it to last for five years. Fifteen sounds more legit. I use anti-shorts and tape them. I like to use Arlington's push on's where not required. I also turn everything off in my house when not in use. Maybe I need help
And I bet you shave your face with an angle grinder.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
You tape them, HOW? or where is the tape placed, you do this on every cable termination. Just curious.
Shucks gotta go I left my suspenders at home with my belt.
electricalperson said:
Tell them to wrap the tape really really really tight so that they make sure that they've driven the cut edge of the jacket into the insulation. . Then if they short out the hot, they can flip the breaker on and watch the fireworks. . Afterwards they cut off the damaged piece and its best to make an open "flying tap" inside the wall [because the MC is now too short to reach into the box].
But if the short is on the neutral, noone will know until the computers start screwing up later on and then they can call Brian John for an investigation. . The hacks are job security for Brian John.
electricalperson said:i use redheads whenever i use MC. and i make my helpers use them too and if they dont they go clean the truck
Good idea ! . Cleaning the truck is unforgettable.
The reason I hear that people skip using an antishort is TIME. . They don't want to take the extra one to 2 seconds to slide each one on.
Ask one of your local hacks to compare the time spent
A] tapping each MC end and adding the wrong fitting
VS
B] sliding in an antishort and adding the correct fitting
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