metal halide question

[larryred]

I have a job that I installed 400w metal halide pole lights there are 18 heads total they are broken up on 8 circuits 208v my question is I have lost 14 bulbs in a years time what could be possible reasons for this. any help would be great I need to find an answer before owner gets to upset

 

[bristlepad]

Sell him some LED high bays, tell him the MHs are out dated (that you installed a year ago)

On a serious note I have this problem with a property we have a contract with to keep them 100% lit. I'm starting to think touching the MH bulbs has the same effects as Quartz bulbs. The oil from your finger prints may be cooking on the bulb causing excessive heat and hurting the life time of the bulb. Just a theory of mine.

 

[Electric-Light]

I have a job that I installed 400w metal halide pole lights there are 18 heads total they are broken up on 8 circuits 208v my question is I have lost 14 bulbs in a years time what could be possible reasons for this. any help would be great I need to find an answer before owner gets to upset

What's the brand of lamps?
First, check for misapplication and incorrect installations.

The lamp's ANSI code and ballast's ANSI code must match. If they do not, it is your fault and you should owe up. The voltage tap on ballast must also be correct.

If the ANSI codes match, but lamps are some Made in China garbage from some unknown brand, crappy lamp is next on my list of possible causes.

 

[larryred]

What's the brand of lamps?
First, check for misapplication and incorrect installations.

The lamp's ANSI code and ballast's ANSI code must match. If they do not, it is your fault and you should owe up. The voltage tap on ballast must also be correct.

If the ANSI codes match, but lamps are some Made in China garbage from some unknown brand, crappy lamp is next on my list of possible causes.

the bulbs came with the lights from the factory. I didn't purchase them the owner did I just installed them we checked wire taps already and they are correct. these bulbs started burning out six months after start up. when first installed we did a 24hr burn in on them after that they have been on 12hr per day. can anyone less validate the oil from you skin doing it like a halogen bulb.

 

[PetrosA]

You mention two things - the owner bought the fixtures and you're afraid the owner will get upset about the situation. Is there anything about these fixtures that seems sub-par? Are they name-brand from a decent manufacturer and are they appropriate for the use they are performing? If there are no installation mistakes or issues, what are you afraid of? The owner has to take responsibility for the lights' performance, not you. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that this is an interesting troubleshooting thread

 

[larryred]

just in the sense that he bought the lights through my supplier they are cooper lights if I remember right so I have a vested interest in the fact that I want more work from him and don't want him going after my supplier for it

 

[larryred]

I talked with my supplier today and he told me that the lights are now at 7000 hrs of run time based on our installation date which is below average for the bulbs but in order for the bulbs to have an average run time of 10000 hrs that means that some of them had to fail earlier than that for the average to be there. so im gonna go out and check the ansi numbers just to be sure that there are no differences even though they came from the factory they could still be wrong.

 

[Electric-Light]

I talked with my supplier today and he told me that the lights are now at 7000 hrs of run time based on our installation date which is below average for the bulbs but in order for the bulbs to have an average run time of 10000 hrs that means that some of them had to fail earlier than that for the average to be there. so im gonna go out and check the ansi numbers just to be sure that there are no differences even though they came from the factory they could still be wrong.

Are they rated 10,000? Many MHs are rated 10,000, but the 400W is often 20,000. They don't like anecdotes and opinions. They like evidence and data. Print this out and circle the 400W and they (Cooper or supplier) admit they ship with lamps substandard to industry leaders or they warranty it. Oil from skin does not matter for big MH lamps. It does for the compact ones. Those are the AA battery sized ones that screw-in or double ended pencil sized ones.

Average for MH is the time it takes for half out of bunch of lamps to fail. For MH, a useful rule of thumb is 70/70. and 1 is half. (70% survivial at 70% of life. half dead at 100% rated life)

http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-5407.pdf

 

[mgookin]

How do you switch the lights?

Are they on a photocontrol causing the lights to come on and go off every time a cloud goes over?
Or are they on a timer and is that timer functioning properly?
Any reason to believe power is not clean?

 

[larryred]

they are on photo eye so cycle time could be higher in winter

 

[mgookin]

You may want to put a datalogger on them to see how many times per day and for how long they come on.

 

[Electric-Light]

they are on photo eye so cycle time could be higher in winter

Did you have all 14 out at once or is that over time?

 

[Ravenvalor]

when first installed we did a 24hr burn in on them after that they have been on 12hr per day.

I've read that the factory seasons their HID lamps to check for defects.

 

[larryred]

six months in was the first then the rest since then til a now

 

[mgookin]

I'd run a datalogger on the circuit(s) to see how many times per day they come on, for how long per day they burn, and to see if the power is clean with respect to under or over voltage.

 

[Electric-Light]

See if they have security cameras and ask if they'd skim through a day or two and check when it came on, when it turned off and if they switched on and off repeatedly.

 

[larryred]

im going out tomorrow to see what I can find ill be sure and let you guys know what I come up with
thanks for all the help. ive never been on this site before the other day but I find I cant stop browsing through all the post reading all the different things that I have questioned in the past to inspectors that are addressed on here. great forum ill be a member for life

 

[larryred]

ok so here was my findings its a combination of things that is not quite over yet
the lights are actually 2.5 yrs old (time apparently really flies for me) the original bulbs by two years over half were burnt out so THEY replaced them with what the little sticker inside the housing said to replace with. with in four months they have all burnt out. so when I got there today I tested voltage drop and amperage, everything was good started checking the bulbs the original bulbs did not match the sticker in housing, so I took the light apart and the original bulbs match the ballast but the sticker in the housing recommends the wrong bulb for the light. we are now in emails with manufacturer to find out how we are gonna handle all this.

 

[PetrosA]

Sounds like the manufacturer goofed big time.

 

[Electric-Light]

ok so here was my findings its a combination of things that is not quite over yet
the lights are actually 2.5 yrs old (time apparently really flies for me) the original bulbs by two years over half were burnt out so THEY replaced them with what the little sticker inside the housing said to replace with. with in four months they have all burnt out. so when I got there today I tested voltage drop and amperage, everything was good started checking the bulbs the original bulbs did not match the sticker in housing, so I took the light apart and the original bulbs match the ballast but the sticker in the housing recommends the wrong bulb for the light. we are now in emails with manufacturer to find out how we are gonna handle all this.

I sort of want to see this one get tried out in place of MH so I can know how it went and just show 'em to those lame LEDs
It's a 330W CMH with 90 CRI that matches 400W MH and make those LEDs gasp.
It costs like $60/lamp, so I used $50/lamp over normal HID since you can get ghetto 400W MH for like $10.

Labor is $0 since the issue needs to get addressed anyways.

It just screws in place of 400W of all kinds and supposed to save you 60-70W/lamp. In 18 fixtures, you shave off about 1.2kW in demand so if the building peaks at 4-6PM time frame in the winter, it could cut a little bit on demand charge.

Ignoring that, they should cut 391kWh/month using 65W per lamp x 11 hr/day x 18 lamps and at 10c/kWh and 3% IR, the $50/lamp added cost cancels out at the end just in time for warranty expiration. If they last as long as they should (20-24K hours), they should go another 1.5 to 2 years before needing replacement all at once and actually continue to yield them $39 savings each month. Some utilities have rebates, but I didn't use them in my math. If incentives are available to change out these lamps, then more power to them.

They say these work with M59 and M165 probe start ballast and C185, M128, M135, M155 and M172 pulse start ballast.
You just got to know if the fixture needs the 9 incher or 12 incher bulb.

http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-6051.pdf
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-6000.pdf