gooseloony
Member
Does the NEC allow or disallow a suite in say a commercial strip mall shopping center to have two seperate panelboards being fed from two seperate service meters (which are installed in one multi-meter MSB)? Thanks in advance.
meters
- Thread starter gooseloony
- Start date
- Status
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: meters
Since it is a single tenant, 230.72 must be followed. The meter is not service equipment, it is just our cash register.
Since it is a single tenant, 230.72 must be followed. The meter is not service equipment, it is just our cash register.
gooseloony
Member
Re: meters
Thanks for the quick response. Our local utility planner says "Absolutely NOT will they set a second meter for the same tenant space"--any comment as to why they would say that? Also, if two meters were to be allowed, is there any warning signs are placards involved? Thanks again
Thanks for the quick response. Our local utility planner says "Absolutely NOT will they set a second meter for the same tenant space"--any comment as to why they would say that? Also, if two meters were to be allowed, is there any warning signs are placards involved? Thanks again
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: meters
Where are the service disconnect's?
If they are at the meters then 230.40 exception 2 applies.
If the disconnect are at the units then 230.40 exception 1 applies.
I think I got this right?
Where are the service disconnect's?
If they are at the meters then 230.40 exception 2 applies.
If the disconnect are at the units then 230.40 exception 1 applies.
I think I got this right?
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: meters
We run into this around here where a renter takes over another unit that had its own meter, But when faced with us setting a totaly seperate service to refeed these two or more units they decided that haveing two or more meters feeding the same combined units is much easier to deal with. and that these units will be seperated again once the tenet moves out. In many places each unit is treated as a seperate structure and can have each its own service.
gooseloony what state are you in ?
We run into this around here where a renter takes over another unit that had its own meter, But when faced with us setting a totaly seperate service to refeed these two or more units they decided that haveing two or more meters feeding the same combined units is much easier to deal with. and that these units will be seperated again once the tenet moves out. In many places each unit is treated as a seperate structure and can have each its own service.
gooseloony what state are you in ?
gooseloony
Member
Re: meters
I'm located in Indiana,ha, just kidding! I am located in So.Cal. the utility company here is SC Edison. They were pretty adamant about not setting a second meter for the same tenant and it made me think maybe it was a safety issue but I really think it must have something to do with addressing and billing. Any other thoughts?
I'm located in Indiana,ha, just kidding! I am located in So.Cal. the utility company here is SC Edison. They were pretty adamant about not setting a second meter for the same tenant and it made me think maybe it was a safety issue but I really think it must have something to do with addressing and billing. Any other thoughts?
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: meters
I'm curious: what would be the reason to desire double metering of a single tenancy?
I'm curious: what would be the reason to desire double metering of a single tenancy?
gooseloony
Member
Re: meters
The load calculated to exceed the existing 200A panelboard and instead of changing out the panel, feeder, conduit to 400A,the tenants elected to install another 200A panelboard from another meter space at the MSB.
The load calculated to exceed the existing 200A panelboard and instead of changing out the panel, feeder, conduit to 400A,the tenants elected to install another 200A panelboard from another meter space at the MSB.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: meters
The power company is within their authority (at least in my area) to refuse two meters to one tenant.
In this area the only way a single tenant might be allowed two meters is for services of different characteristics.
See if you can confirm what you where told by the POCO man. Look on the POCos web site for their installation requirements, often available as a .pdf download.
If in fact it is a written rule you are out of luck.
Here are the rules for one of my local utilities.
[ July 17, 2005, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
This has nothing to do with the NEC.
The power company is within their authority (at least in my area) to refuse two meters to one tenant.
In this area the only way a single tenant might be allowed two meters is for services of different characteristics.
See if you can confirm what you where told by the POCO man. Look on the POCos web site for their installation requirements, often available as a .pdf download.
If in fact it is a written rule you are out of luck.
Here are the rules for one of my local utilities.
A lot of "ifs" in that but in practice the answer is no.
[ July 17, 2005, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
tx2step
Senior Member
- Location
- North Texas, DFW area
Re: meters
A lot of apartment buildings also do it.
A lot of apartment buildings also do it.
gooseloony
Member
Re: meters
Yes Bob, I believe you're right about it being a local utility requirement from their "green book". I have a copy at work and will locate the section. My original concern was that it may have been a safety issue as to why they didn't allow it.
And thanks to all who took the time to respond. These forums are quite a tool.
Yes Bob, I believe you're right about it being a local utility requirement from their "green book". I have a copy at work and will locate the section. My original concern was that it may have been a safety issue as to why they didn't allow it.
And thanks to all who took the time to respond. These forums are quite a tool.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: meters
It depends on the rules and law where you are located. Indiana law prohibits the reselling of electricity unless you are an electric utility. However, you are permitted to master meter and use sub-meters to split the electric bill among the users.
Re: meters
If the metering center has a single service circuit breaker then the meter is in a FEEDER. In fact, two 200 amp feeders and panelboards will usually be more economical than a single 400 amp. In fact, a 400 amp 120Y208 volt line is essentially two 200 amp line joined together at both ends. Because of neutral heating due to electric discharge lighting, computers, and so forth you would need 250 KCM copper for each phase conductor plus 1 or 2 250 KCM for the neutral for a 200 amp line. You would need 2 conduits for 400 amps plus the hassle of routing the conduits so that they are each of the same exact length.
A common way of building a 400 amp service is to use two 200 amp service switches. This is usually less expensive and also allows you to do deenergized maintenance in each panelboard.
Also, a 200 amp line has less in the way of short circuit coordination problems. If you need to use class J fuses ahead of the panelboard you may have to break this into two 200 amp lines to get a realistic series connected rating. Same goes for using high rated circuit breakers in the feeders.
The General Electric KV2c meter can be equipped with a type M I/O cord that allows 1 meter so send KWHr, KVARHr, and apparent power pulses to another meter and the second meter then totalizes the readings.
Another way to totalize 2 feeders or 2 services that run off of the same transformer is to run both sets of wires through a common set of current transformers or to use 6 current transformers with the secondaries wired in parallel.
If the metering center has a single service circuit breaker then the meter is in a FEEDER. In fact, two 200 amp feeders and panelboards will usually be more economical than a single 400 amp. In fact, a 400 amp 120Y208 volt line is essentially two 200 amp line joined together at both ends. Because of neutral heating due to electric discharge lighting, computers, and so forth you would need 250 KCM copper for each phase conductor plus 1 or 2 250 KCM for the neutral for a 200 amp line. You would need 2 conduits for 400 amps plus the hassle of routing the conduits so that they are each of the same exact length.
A common way of building a 400 amp service is to use two 200 amp service switches. This is usually less expensive and also allows you to do deenergized maintenance in each panelboard.
Also, a 200 amp line has less in the way of short circuit coordination problems. If you need to use class J fuses ahead of the panelboard you may have to break this into two 200 amp lines to get a realistic series connected rating. Same goes for using high rated circuit breakers in the feeders.
The General Electric KV2c meter can be equipped with a type M I/O cord that allows 1 meter so send KWHr, KVARHr, and apparent power pulses to another meter and the second meter then totalizes the readings.
Another way to totalize 2 feeders or 2 services that run off of the same transformer is to run both sets of wires through a common set of current transformers or to use 6 current transformers with the secondaries wired in parallel.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: meters
We recently did a construction trailer complex 4 seperate units bolted together @ having a 100 amp mbr panel.electrical inspected 2 200 amp services 100 @ and pased it'
Builiding inspector faied it since the four construction trailers, were in essence 1 unit and required a400amp service.Had to pull all new commercial permits delaying the poco energizing this new 400 amp wp service :roll:
We recently did a construction trailer complex 4 seperate units bolted together @ having a 100 amp mbr panel.electrical inspected 2 200 amp services 100 @ and pased it'
Builiding inspector faied it since the four construction trailers, were in essence 1 unit and required a400amp service.Had to pull all new commercial permits delaying the poco energizing this new 400 amp wp service :roll:
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: meters
If that is the POCOs stance the only option will be installing one 400 amp metering position.
Edited at the request of Don R.
[ July 19, 2005, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
It makes no difference, the power company can refuse to provide a second meter for the same tenant.
If that is the POCOs stance the only option will be installing one 400 amp metering position.
What the heck are you talking about?
Edited at the request of Don R.
[ July 19, 2005, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
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