mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
Is there a protocol for mid century fixtures with UL stickers - can they be used in a new installation?
Mid Century Fixtures
- Thread starter mwm1752
- Start date
- Status
Do you mean a fixture that has worked for 100 yrs. and is still in good shape electrical wise?
I would use it if it was supplied by the owner, installed new Italian fixtures that had zero UL, and am not aware of any laws hat say must be UL approved.
I would inspect the fixture to make sure I knew the socket center lead and the wire was in good shape.
But, I don't follow the code completely at my house if I think it's a bs cya help the unknowing out rule.
After rereading it has UL then install it. What are you asking?
I would use it if it was supplied by the owner, installed new Italian fixtures that had zero UL, and am not aware of any laws hat say must be UL approved.
I would inspect the fixture to make sure I knew the socket center lead and the wire was in good shape.
But, I don't follow the code completely at my house if I think it's a bs cya help the unknowing out rule.
After rereading it has UL then install it. What are you asking?
Last edited:
Buck Parrish
Senior Member
- Location
- NC & IN
If they have a UL sticker, then yes they can.
Who knows, they may have been rewired and UL approved after their initial install.
Do they have an equipment ground wire?
Who knows, they may have been rewired and UL approved after their initial install.
Do they have an equipment ground wire?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
410.6 requires luminaires to be listed, but can be any NRTL not just UL.
That rule wasn't always there, IMO existing unlisted fixture installed before the rule is still ok, but can't be moved to a new location either.
Been years since I did resi., guess all the 1920 light fixtures, chandlers, sconces, etc. would need to be re-ULed, they do move about. I did hang some that came to upstate from NY City, they had been rewired. galv.rig. supported by me on rough, very nice not re-ULed but were rewired again years ago.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Old fixtures are a real issue. I have found them to be in need of replacement wiring. Overheated and melting connections ......
I never want to take any responsibility for them , Especially the ones that are re-wired by a DIY. The DIY never follow the rules for the shell being neutral and the center being hot.
I never want to take any responsibility for them , Especially the ones that are re-wired by a DIY. The DIY never follow the rules for the shell being neutral and the center being hot.
I think that got added in the 08' or 11' code. My guess is the NFPA/NEC is trying to move those part VII 'construction of ' sections out of the code and over to a UL standard. Rewire the fixture with quality 'recognized' components, make sure its grounded etc, job done.
If your in a historic part of a city with a demand for rewiring fixtures owning a copy of UL 1598 might be in order.
It is interesting with all the fabrication moving out of the code. I wonder if electrical and lighting contractors that do custom lighting will get certified as a UL 1598 'lighting shop' like people get certified as a UL 508A 'panel shop' ?
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
Mid Century fixtures come from the 1950's to 70's it seems that they are now a fashionable thing -- those that did not get sold are now in demand -- no grounding but that can be remedied with a mounting bracket -- Just curious on thoughts as a decision needs to be made --
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
If it was a listed recessed fixture I'd most likely refuse if no thermal protection (but before thermals where installed by factory you could by one & retrofit it)- fixture listed back then do not always conform to today's standards & was more curious if the the group interpreted the NEC would eliminate them from use
IMO this is where it should come down to an inspectors knowledge, experience, and expertise to inspect, examine, and approve it. For the NEC to mandate that an antique or crafted fixture needs to go through a listing process is absurd.
Roger
++1 agreed that's the definition of approved. Unfortunately I think it's a mistake to require all fixtures to be listed. I like the idea of listing in general for all the different fixtures available now. However I think the wording of 2017 NEC 410.6 should have an exception for an 'approved' surface mounted or pendant fixture with screw-shell lampholders. Or some wording like that.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
The very first thing I would do with any such light fixture is temporarily connect it to a power source before it is hung, i.e. bench test it, before hanging it. Because there is simply no way I am going to spend any time once it is installed figuring out why two sockets out of 35 don't work, or take an 80 lb chandelier back out of a 20-foot ceiling.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
I would contend that it is not an inspectors duty to validate a product for life safety listing - why should an inspector take liability because an GC / EC do not want to disappoint a client - NRTL's are a valid part of equipment & procedures to test are updated for safety, that being said inspectors knowledge, experience, and expertise do have a role in decisions - a catch 22 welcome to my world
I'm not talking about what a client wants, I'm talking about 110.3(A). If an inspector can sign off on many other items not listed, why shouldn't they be allowed to approve a rewired fixture.
Heck, with the exception of SWD rated breakers and those protecting small (#16 and lower) conductors, breakers in general are not required to be listed.
Roger
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Not as easy to approve something in the field when NEC says it must be listed. Ok maybe it is easy to do it, but when others find out you did that they remember it and it can come back and get you later. Inspectors should only make those kinds of decisions when NEC (or other recognized local rules) isn't all that clear on something - and most I have encountered usually do it that way.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I thought so.
My point was NEC says luminaires must be listed. Gets more complicated when you have older luminaires and the fact code didn't always have that requirement, but new installs I think is pretty clear - they must be listed.
What good does it do to have an inspector pull 110.3(A) out of the bag any time he desires? Might as well throw the code book away and have said inspector involved in every install decision you make - 110.3(A) should only be used for thing not covered by the rest of the code or for things that are hard to determine because code isn't always perfect.
If code says something must be listed and an inspector allows it anyway - that isn't good for the AHJ, they shouldn't be able to make up rules as they go without making official amendments and publishing them somewhere in public records, and leave the judgement calls for those occasional situations where code and/or local rules just don't quiet cover the situation at hand.
And who in this thread said they didn't have to be listed.
Once again, who in this thread said they didn't.
An inspector has to use 110.3(A) for equipment that is not listed, they can't just pull it out when they choose to.
Duh
This is why I asked if you read the thread, If you had read it and comprehended what I said you would have noticed I started my first post with "IMO", not that the listing requirement could be ignored.
Roger
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Sounds like we agree on everything - sorry if I misunderstood something.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
I've been on both sides -- & a fixture that is to be installed should be held to a standard of life safety - to make a judgement on such issues should not be a cavalier statement it should be a researched agenda- such as this thread
- Status