Mike Holt's video on grounding & bonding

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jeff48356

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I just watched Mike Holt's 75-minute video on grounding and bonding last night on YouTube. I have a few questions:

1) Since the earth is not an effective fault-current path, what purpose does the secondary grounding electrode serve (such as a ground rod) at the service? He said that the ground rod serves no purpose. Also, why would we need a ground rod driven at a detached garage? The equipment ground conductor in the underground raceway protects the wiring from a fault, because the electrons are seeking to return to the source -- not the ground.

2) Why is it now required to run a grounding conductor from the main service panel all the way to the water meter, rather than simply connecting a grounding jumper to the nearest cold water pipe, then another jumper across the meter? How would the former be any more effective than the latter?

3) Why doesn't the NEC require all older non-grounding installations to be rewired with cable containing a ground wire? After watching that video, that would be the first thing I would do if I bought a house built before 1959 that did not have grounding wires throughout.
 
I just watched Mike Holt's 75-minute video on grounding and bonding last night on YouTube. I have a few questions:

1) Since the earth is not an effective fault-current path, what purpose does the secondary grounding electrode serve (such as a ground rod) at the service? He said that the ground rod serves no purpose. Also, why would we need a ground rod driven at a detached garage? The equipment ground conductor in the underground raceway protects the wiring from a fault, because the electrons are seeking to return to the source -- not the ground.
In general the connection to earth is for lightning protection and protection form contact with higher voltage systems. I am not sure how likely either of those would be between the house and the garage, but the code requires the grounding electrode at the second building.

2) Why is it now required to run a grounding conductor from the main service panel all the way to the water meter, rather than simply connecting a grounding jumper to the nearest cold water pipe, then another jumper across the meter? How would the former be any more effective than the latter?
Because, in many cases, plumbing repairs are made using non-conductive parts.


3) Why doesn't the NEC require all older non-grounding installations to be rewired with cable containing a ground wire? After watching that video, that would be the first thing I would do if I bought a house built before 1959 that did not have grounding wires throughout.
In general building codes cannot be retroactive. The code that was in effect at the time the building was built applies until changes are made in the electrical system or the building itself. The current code applies to extensions or new circuits. Local rules my require an upgrade to the complete electrical system where remodeling is being done, if the value of the remodeling exceeds 50% of the value of the building.
 
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I just watched Mike Holt's 75-minute video on grounding and bonding last night on YouTube. I have a few questions:

1) Since the earth is not an effective fault-current path, what purpose does the secondary grounding electrode serve (such as a ground rod) at the service? He said that the ground rod serves no purpose. Also, why would we need a ground rod driven at a detached garage? The equipment ground conductor in the underground raceway protects the wiring from a fault, because the electrons are seeking to return to the source -- not the ground.

2) Why is it now required to run a grounding conductor from the main service panel all the way to the water meter, rather than simply connecting a grounding jumper to the nearest cold water pipe, then another jumper across the meter? How would the former be any more effective than the latter?

3) Why doesn't the NEC require all older non-grounding installations to be rewired with cable containing a ground wire? After watching that video, that would be the first thing I would do if I bought a house built before 1959 that did not have grounding wires throughout.

In Addition to what Don said, some other comments....

1) Note the GES is for connecting non current carrying metallic parts to earth and system grounding. These are of relatively minor importance especially considering the system is already grounded by the utility (often to their entire distribution grounding system (depending on the type of distribution system). The GES at the premise is likely for redundancy plus the NEC has no control over utility practices and they dont want to just have faith that the utility will always take care of it. My thinking has always been that the supplemental electrode is just a backup due to the likely hood of metallic water systems getting reworked and replaced with plastic. IMO there is quite a bit of voodoo behind the grounding electrode system - just that its importance is not commensurate with some of the requirements such as irreversible connections, supplemental electrode, etc. I have often heard it stated that the electrode at a remote structure is for lighting. I conjecture the thinking is that if lightning hits the service drop, it could get to the remote structure through the equipment grounding system and an electrode there reduces the chance of flashover to other "stuff"

2) I dont think that is a very new requirement. Again , I think the fear is reworking of the piping system. Note that certain types of industrial buildings where qualified individuals maintain the electrical system, the connection can be made anywhere.

3) personally I would be much more concerned about older failing insulation resulting in faults and fire rather than a lack of a EGC. Quite a bit of residential stuff doesnt have a ground prong anyway.
 
For 2), I would add that the responsible person for the electrical system also needs to be on speaking terms with the plumber, so he is aware of nonconductive insertions.
 
I just watched Mike Holt's 75-minute video on grounding and bonding last night on YouTube. I have a few questions:

1) Since the earth is not an effective fault-current path, what purpose does the secondary grounding electrode serve (such as a ground rod) at the service? He said that the ground rod serves no purpose. Also, why would we need a ground rod driven at a detached garage? The equipment ground conductor in the underground raceway protects the wiring from a fault, because the electrons are seeking to return to the source -- not the ground.

In addition to that discussed above, the ground at service entrance may also reduce touch voltage when there is a ground fault at the service entrance equipment. Contrary to Mikeholt's belief that neutral ground resistance at the POCO's transformer is zero, assume a small resistance say 0.1 ohm. The GEC ground rod resistance before bonding to the POCO neutral may be 25 ohms but after bonding it will become close to 0.1 ohm. So say it is 0.12 ohm. For a ground fault of 120V phase wire at the service equipment enclosure with no service entrance ground, the touch voltage will be around 60V. But with a service entrance ground, the touch voltage would be about [60/(0.1+0.12)]*0.12=33 V only.
 
In addition to that discussed above, the ground at service entrance may also reduce touch voltage when there is a ground fault at the service entrance equipment. Contrary to Mikeholt's belief that neutral ground resistance at the POCO's transformer is zero, assume a small resistance say 0.1 ohm. The GEC ground rod resistance before bonding to the POCO neutral may be 25 ohms but after bonding it will become close to 0.1 ohm. So say it is 0.12 ohm. For a ground fault of 120V phase wire at the service equipment enclosure with no service entrance ground, the touch voltage will be around 60V. But with a service entrance ground, the touch voltage would be about [60/(0.1+0.12)]*0.12=33 V only.
You are never going to give up this misguided notion are you?
 
In addition to that discussed above, the ground at service entrance may also reduce touch voltage when there is a ground fault at the service entrance equipment. Contrary to Mikeholt's belief that neutral ground resistance at the POCO's transformer is zero, assume a small resistance say 0.1 ohm. The GEC ground rod resistance before bonding to the POCO neutral may be 25 ohms but after bonding it will become close to 0.1 ohm. So say it is 0.12 ohm. For a ground fault of 120V phase wire at the service equipment enclosure with no service entrance ground, the touch voltage will be around 60V. But with a service entrance ground, the touch voltage would be about [60/(0.1+0.12)]*0.12=33 V only.
It may reduce the touch voltage if you are standing very close to the grounding electrode, as the fault current will raise the voltage of the earth for a small area around the electrode reducing the touch voltage. If you are 5 or so feet away from the grounding electrode there will be very little reduction in the touch voltage.

In both of your examples the actual touch voltage to "remote" earth will be equal to the voltage drop on the fault return path. The second fault return path does very little to change the voltage drop. The only reduction in the touch voltage is because the grounding electrode has raised the voltage of the earth around the grounding electrode.
 
In addition to that discussed above, the ground at service entrance may also reduce touch voltage when there is a ground fault at the service entrance equipment. Contrary to Mikeholt's belief that neutral ground resistance at the POCO's transformer is zero, assume a small resistance say 0.1 ohm. The GEC ground rod resistance before bonding to the POCO neutral may be 25 ohms but after bonding it will become close to 0.1 ohm. So say it is 0.12 ohm. For a ground fault of 120V phase wire at the service equipment enclosure with no service entrance ground, the touch voltage will be around 60V. But with a service entrance ground, the touch voltage would be about [60/(0.1+0.12)]*0.12=33 V only.

You have a big problem with your math.

A line to EGC bolted fault at service will be the sum of the resistance of the neutral to the transformers X0 as well as the ungrounded conductor, lets say both have a resistance of .1 ohms so the total path will be .2 ohms which will give you a bolted fault of 600 amps, if the POCO supply (transformer) will supply 600 amps fault current which I would very well believe it is more then capable of, all the grounding of this building will see 120 volts on it because that is the voltage drop across a .2 ohms resistor when 600 amps is applied.

Now look at a rod type electrode of 25 ohms, with the above 120 volts imposed on it, this would only pass 4.8 amps to earth, this leaves 595.2 amps flowing on the ungrounded and the neutral return paths, this 25 ohms has only reduced the voltage imposed on the grounding of the house to 119.04 volts a reduction of only .96 volts.

Now lets get into touch and step potential around a grounding electrode, as I tell everyone who is trying to wrap there mind around understanding how current flow from a ground rod and the voltage drop also around a ground rod I tell everyone to not think of a single wire between two points, this is not how current flows in earth, you must think in three dimensions, as the earth around a ground rod goes down and out in all directions, the area around a rod is referred to as shells, a shell is a measurement to an imaginary line that is the exact distance in all directions around and down under the rod, if drawing it will look like a round cylinder with a round bottom so that all points of this cylinder is exactly the same distance from the rod.

Now that you should be able to imagine the above area around a rod or shell next look at how many parallel paths of earth you would have in this first shell of only one foot from the rod, next look at how many parallel paths you would have at the shell mark of 3 foot from the rod, the 1 foot shell would have very little soil in it so it would have fewer parallel paths then the 3 foot shell will have, as you get farther from the rod the more and more parallel paths there are so most of the voltage is dropped very close to the rod.

now with this understanding you can see why most of the voltage that is imposed upon an electrode is dropped within the first few feet from an electrode, at the 3 foot shell (or 3' from the electrode) you would have dropped 75% of the voltage applied to the electrode, when you get to the 25-26 mark or distance from the electrode you should be very close to dropping 100% of the voltage, this is called the sphere of influence of a grounding electrode Or SOI for short, if you have dropped 100% of the voltage at 25 to 26 feet from the electrode (and this has been proved) you would not have any voltage drop left at the transformer, this is where this comes from.

So with the above a person knelling on the ground 3 feet from this rod will receive a 89.28 shock if they were to touch this electrode, lets say they are on the other side of the house more then 26 feet from the ground rod and they are doing yard work or using a metal power tool that has the case of it connected to the EGC from this service lets say they are making a good connection to earth by being bare foot, if the fault in your example were to happen they would receive a 119.04 volt shock through their body from the tool in their hands through their body to the connection they are making with earth, more then enough voltage to kill a person, even the 89.28 volts at the 3 foot shell is enough to kill now you should see that most electrodes will not eliminate touch or step potential.

All of the above, math included has been verified in experiments by myself as well as a member of this forum who shared his same experiments with us as he was doing them in a thread called: Time To Eat Crow < click on this link if you wish to read about these experiments, pay attention to the readings he had in all directions from the injection rod.

connections to earth are a mystery to many simply because we forget to think in three dimensions, we seem to forget that current takes all paths back to source, this leads many to think that current flows in a straight line from one point to the next through earth, if we read the above and the experiment in the link I provided we can see that the current will flow in all directions from the rod, the earth is nothing more then a big ball of countless parallel paths, now remember this: parallel enough billion ohm resistors together and you will eventually get to zero ohms, keep this in mind when you read the Time to Eat Crow thread and it may help to understand the results that was obtained.
 
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If you have only measured (in presence of POCO's staff, of course) the neutral to ground resistance at the POCO's supply transformer and the GEC ground rod resistance after it has been bonded to the neutral bar in the service equipment, you may arrive at an entirely different conclusion. By the way, in the eating crow experiment (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=116358) Gary did not attach neutral wire also to the ground rod and measure the ground rod voltage drops. Had he done it with a suitable arrangement for doing so, he would have measured nearly half the voltage i.e 25V across the ground rod i.e its touch voltage is 25V only!
 
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A line to EGC bolted fault at service will be the sum of the resistance of the neutral to the transformers X0 as well as the ungrounded conductor, lets say both have a resistance of .1 ohms so the total path will be .2 ohms which will give you a bolted fault of 600 amps, if the POCO supply (transformer) will supply 600 amps fault current which I would very well believe it is more then capable of, all the grounding of this building will see 120 volts on it because that is the voltage drop across a .2 ohms resistor when 600 amps is applied.
Think this way: When A line to EGC bolted fault at service occurs, out of 120V, nearly half the voltage is dropped across the phase wire as both phase and neutral are usually of equal cross section. So when there is no GEC ground rod, the fault voltage with respect to remote ground is around 60V only.
Now look at a rod type electrode of 25 ohms, with the above 120 volts imposed on it, this would only pass 4.8 amps to earth, this leaves 595.2 amps flowing on the ungrounded and the neutral return paths, this 25 ohms has only reduced the voltage imposed on the grounding of the house to 119.04 volts a reduction of only .96 volts.
You need to see the ground resistance value of the GEC ground rod after it is bonded to the neutral bar in the service equipment. This ground resistance is then connected in parallel to other ground resistances throughout the whole distribution system through the neutral wire. The value of its resistance would not now be 25 ohms but close to zero.
 
Think this way: When A line to EGC bolted fault at service occurs, out of 120V, nearly half the voltage is dropped across the phase wire as both phase and neutral are usually of equal cross section. So when there is no GEC ground rod, the fault voltage with respect to remote ground is around 60V only. ...
And the connection to earth doesn't really change that. You have a path via the earth that has an impedance of hundreds to thousands of times greater than the grounded (neutral) conductor. The change in the impedance of the fault return path will be very slightly less when you make the earth connection. The voltage drop on the fault return path will not change very much.

The only addition safety that is provided by the connection to the grounding electrode is the fact that this connection raises the voltage of the earth for a very small area around the electrode and if you are standing in the area where the voltage of the earth has been increased the touch potential has been reduced.
 
Think this way: When A line to EGC bolted fault at service occurs, out of 120V, nearly half the voltage is dropped across the phase wire as both phase and neutral are usually of equal cross section. So when there is no GEC ground rod, the fault voltage with respect to remote ground is around 60V only.

You are correct the voltage will be 60 volts, for some reason I had the thought of the service neutral blowing open and got my mind mixed up, here in the US it is not uncommon that the POCO will provide an undersized neutral, for a 100 amp service you can have two #4 aluminum ungrounded conductors and a #6 grounded conductor (neutral) so if a fault were to happen at the service equipment the voltage would be higher but because here we don't always try to protect the secondary conductors from a fault the neutral can burn free in some cases, if this happened then the voltage on the grounding would be 120 volts or 119.04 with the 25 ohm ground rod.

You need to see the ground resistance value of the GEC ground rod after it is bonded to the neutral bar in the service equipment. This ground resistance is then connected in parallel to other ground resistances throughout the whole distribution system through the neutral wire. The value of its resistance would not now be 25 ohms but close to zero.


your not redrawing the circuit correctly, you have two .1 ohm resistors in series with a voltage source of 120 volts, then you have a 25 ohm resistor parallel with one of the .1 ohm resistors (neutral), if you 1x .1 ohm 1x 25 ohms you get .0996 ohms rounded off for the return path to the transformers X0, this will give you a 59.88 volts at the fault point to remote earth not 30 volts, in this parallel return path the neutral will return 598.8 amps, the rod will only return 2.3952 amps, so the rod only reduced the voltage from 60 volt by .12 volts.

the rod does not take on the resistance of the neutral you have to figure the rod as a seperate resistor parallel with the neutral, you don't add in the resistance of the transformer electrodes as because of the large network of electrodes on the primary system this for the most part can be figured as zero ohms and the fact that if the rod is further then 26 feet from the X0 referance electrodes, so the rod to earth resistance should be figured as a 25 ohm parallel resistor between the transformers X0 and the neutral at the service.

so lets call the ungrounded conductor (hot) R1
neutral R2
rod electrode R3

R1 electrical figures are
E = 60.12v
I = 601.2a
R = .1 ohms

R2
E = 59.88v
I = 598.8a
R = .1 ohms

R3
E = 59.88v
I = 2.3952a
R = 25 ohms

node 1 are the same as R1,
node 2 (R2 parallel with R3 in series with R1) are as follows
E = 59.88v
I = 601.2a
R = .0996 ohms


So with the above figures you can see that as Don said the rod will not reduce the voltage very much, a whole .12 volts
 
the rod does not take on the resistance of the neutral you have to figure the rod as a seperate resistor parallel with the neutral, you don't add in the resistance of the transformer electrodes as because of the large network of electrodes on the primary system this for the most part can be figured as zero ohms and the fact that if the rod is further then 26 feet from the X0 referance electrodes, so the rod to earth resistance should be figured as a 25 ohm parallel resistor between the transformers X0 and the neutral at the service.
As you agree that neutral to ground resistance of POCO's transformer side is almost zero because of large number of such ground resistances in parallel throughout the distribution system, it is just one step to see that the ground resistance of the GEC ground rod after it is bonded to the neutral bar is also almost zero because it is then in parallel with other vast number of system ground resistances in parallel.
so lets call the ungrounded conductor (hot) R1
neutral R2
rod electrode R3

R1 electrical figures are
E = 60.12v
I = 601.2a
R = .1 ohms

R2
E = 59.88v
I = 598.8a
R = .1 ohms

R3
E = 59.88v
I = 2.3952a
R = 25 ohms

node 1 are the same as R1,
node 2 (R2 parallel with R3 in series with R1) are as follows
E = 59.88v
I = 601.2a
R = .0996 ohms


So with the above figures you can see that as Don said the rod will not reduce the voltage very much, a whole .12 volts
Let us analyse your calculation after your comment about my statement above.:)
 
As you agree that neutral to ground resistance of POCO's transformer side is almost zero because of large number of such ground resistances in parallel throughout the distribution system, it is just one step to see that the ground resistance of the GEC ground rod after it is bonded to the neutral bar is also almost zero because it is then in parallel with other vast number of system ground resistances in parallel.

Let us analyse your calculation after your comment about my statement above.:)

Sahib, when modeling a circuit you must take each load in the circuit as a separate component, you can not add a resistance load to the circuit then use the circuits load as part of that components resistance, to do so will always cause you to error on the output of your model.

what your trying to do is to figure how much effect a 25 ohm load will lower the voltage of the circuit, in this case you are paralleling this 25 ohm load with the .1 ohm load of a series circuit (the neutral return path back to the transformer) this is a .004 to 1 ratio or .4% of the neutral, if this parallel node will see 601.2amps then multiplying it by the ratio will tell you that this resistor (25 ohms) will share only 2.4 amps, the math is there, it doesn't lie?

How can you properly model a circuit if you add the resistance of the circuit to the resistor your modeling, you end up not modeling the 25 ohm resistor but both the neutral and the resistor, this does not model the added load of this resistor but doubles the added load of the neutral and the resistor to the resistor your modeling, this will skew the results as if you had added another neutral conductor parallel into the parallel path of the original neutral this will tell you nothing of what load the 25 ohm resistor added, you only have three resistors to model, the hot conductor, the neutral, and the 25 ohm ground rod parallel to the neutral.

the series resistors is what gives you the 60 volts at the fault point, paralleling a 25 ohm resistor to one of these will only add its load to half of this series circuit, since this half is only referenced to earth at the supply end.

Attached is a diagram of the circuit at hand, see if it makes sense.
 

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3) Why doesn't the NEC require all older non-grounding installations to be rewired with cable containing a ground wire? After watching that video, that would be the first thing I would do if I bought a house built before 1959 that did not have grounding wires throughout.

What will 'grounding wires' do for you?

How many appliances outside of the kitchen need grounding?

My own home is a 1925 and many of the circuits do not have any grounding conductor, I am in no rush to add them.
 
Sahib, when modeling a circuit you must take each load in the circuit as a separate component, you can not add a resistance load to the circuit then use the circuits load as part of that components resistance, to do so will always cause you to error on the output of your model.

what your trying to do is to figure how much effect a 25 ohm load will lower the voltage of the circuit, in this case you are paralleling this 25 ohm load with the .1 ohm load of a series circuit (the neutral return path back to the transformer) this is a .004 to 1 ratio or .4% of the neutral, if this parallel node will see 601.2amps then multiplying it by the ratio will tell you that this resistor (25 ohms) will share only 2.4 amps, the math is there, it doesn't lie?

How can you properly model a circuit if you add the resistance of the circuit to the resistor your modeling, you end up not modeling the 25 ohm resistor but both the neutral and the resistor, this does not model the added load of this resistor but doubles the added load of the neutral and the resistor to the resistor your modeling, this will skew the results as if you had added another neutral conductor parallel into the parallel path of the original neutral this will tell you nothing of what load the 25 ohm resistor added, you only have three resistors to model, the hot conductor, the neutral, and the 25 ohm ground rod parallel to the neutral.

the series resistors is what gives you the 60 volts at the fault point, paralleling a 25 ohm resistor to one of these will only add its load to half of this series circuit, since this half is only referenced to earth at the supply end.

Attached is a diagram of the circuit at hand, see if it makes sense.
Thanks Wayne for your replies.
The problem with your diagram is your assumption that 25 ohm resistance is in series with the POCO's transformer neutral to ground resistance. The POCO's transformer neutral to ground resistance represent a number a system ground resistances in parallel. The 25 ohm resistance is also effectively in parallel with such resistances. How can you treat one of them i.e 25 ohm resistance in series with the rest?
Answer:It can't be.
 
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