Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

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JoshH

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I am an estimator for a general contractor (so I dont know a whole lot about electrical)and am being challenged over my quantities on several items from one of my clients who "used to do it for a living so he knows everything". Please if possible clarify the following. (I work in Houston, TX)

1. I have been told that the smallest copper wire size that I can use in a 20A single phase circuit is a # 12. Is this true? I thought I could use a # 10.

2. I've been told that my flex conduit for my light fixture whips cannot be longer than 6 feet. I say up to 25'. Which one if any of us are correct?

3. I say that I can have up to 4 quarter bends in a run of conduit before I must install a j-box. He says I can only have 2 quarter bends. Who is right? ( I get paid more for each bend I make so the greater the number the better it is for me)

I love owners money but I sometimes I hate the owners.

Thanks for the help.
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Before this thread gets banned--
1- #12 wire is actually smaller than #10. But it is good for 20 amps.
2- You lose. 6' is about right for whips.
3- Congratultions! You got one right and he is dismally wrong. You can have up to 360? in a run. BUT you really don't want to because it's hard to pull. Why would you get paid more per bend?
~Peter
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Peter, Thank you very much for the info.

To answer your question, I use an RS Means Pricing book for putting together estimates, and it pays extra for each bend I have to make, so the more the better.
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Remember,
it is Not (4) quarter bends, it is 360degrees of bends as Peter points out. This includes box offsets and saddles and such in the 360.

Out of curiosity,
if you plot 3 bends, and it only takes 2 on install, do you credit back 1 bend $$ ?
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Also,

I don't necessarily agree with either answer to your question #2.

Is this in an accessible ceiling??

If so, the 6ft. is for support. See 320.30(B)(3)
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

One more thing,

in your question #1, what is the circut feeding??

Is it a receptacle circut or an A/C circut?
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

If I plot 3 bends and only use 2 I dont credit it back to the owner...unless my superintendent on site catches this and is feeling particularly generous towards the owner that day, then decides to bring it up to me...if so, then I tell him to shutup. There is usually enough stuff we do extra without getting paid so I dont feel eternally damned if I keep the credit for an extra bend in the conduit. It only pays a few bucks, and when you use the RS Means book to price you have to scrape for everything you can get...getting as detailed as charging for plaster rings and wire nuts.

The fixture whip is in an accessible ceiling...well its a suspended acoustical ceiling with about 4 feet of clearance to the deck above, so it kind of depends on what you define as accessible. I have heard that the limit is 6 feet though...just wanted to double check.

I thought a quarter bend was equal to 90degrees and 4 would make the 360 in theory. I see your point though.

In question # 1, it is a receptacle circuit.

Another question to add to my earlier ones...

If you have to run conduit from a feeder panel to a smoke detector or for that matter a strobe light across a hallway (approx. 80 feet), can I use rigid conduit the whole way? What is the proper conduit to use? Rigid or MC until I get above the suspended ceiling then change to flex?
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

I didn't mean to condemn you as far as the credit thing, I was just curious as to how that works.

Q.1 would be #12 wire minimum

Q.3 again, there could be (2) 22&1/2 degree offset bends which would equal 45degrees before you even get to your first 90.

At this point, however, it might be against forum rules to continue, so I'll let a moderator jump in.
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Originally posted by JoshH:


1. I have been told that the smallest copper wire size that I can use in a 20A single phase circuit is a # 12. Is this true? I thought I could use a # 10.
Click to expand...
I noticed you mentioned conduit frequently in your posts. If this 20A circuit is going to be in conduit - will it be the only circuit in that run?

If not, how many circuits do you plan on putting in one conduit run; and what is their intended use (ie, general lighting, AC outlet, etc)?
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

This thread is rather interesting which is why it's not locked [yet].
Josh,
Why is the general contractor esrimating electrical work? Shouldn't the Electrical sub be doing this?
The idea of running up the bid by adding extra bends seems to be counter-productive since usually you want the lowest bid.
Now for your latest question: "can I use rigid conduit the whole way? What is the proper conduit to use? Rigid or MC until I get above the suspended ceiling then change to flex?"
Rigid should be avoided like the Bubonic plague. Usually EMT [if you know what that is} is used. MC cable is fine for within walls but exposed in a room not so much so. Before you start specifying stuff, you should know what you're dealing with. Don't forget that labor costs are often more critical and variable than material costs. Have you ever done any electrical work or even visited a job site?
~Peter
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

You know I thought this forum was for people that work in our trade, not GC's asking first year apprentice questions. It is very obivous this GC is bidding so he can try to preform as a EC when ever he can get away with it. Here is the only answer he deserves "CALL AN ELECTRIC CONTRACTOR!!!!!!" Everyday we lose work to these clowns.
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

I knew that one was on the way,just a matter of time..... ;)
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Originally posted by peter:

Rigid should be avoided like the Bubonic plague.
Click to expand...
I love to run pipe..the bigger the better, the more the merrier.
:D
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

By HV: You know I thought this forum was for people that work in our trade
Click to expand...
This NEC? Forum is for those in the electrical and related industries
Click to expand...
He stated that he is an estimator for a general contractor.
Wouldn't that be a related industry?
And the fact he is not asking how to wire his house I see no problem. :D
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Thank you very much to all that provided helpful feedback, my questions were answered.

A special message to HighKVoltage...wow, ya' need some help son. The professional kind that involves an hour on a couch and some meds.

To clear a few things up since I'm bored at the moment, no I am not bidding work as an EC nor do I care to...that is what g.c.'s pay e.c.'s for. It is part of my contract with the owner to bid a job (job order contracting- for those of you who are familiar with this process)and to bid all trades...as an estimator, knocking out divisions 1 thru 15 is no problem but as I am not an electrician by trade I do encounter unknowns from time to time, that is why I chose to come here and get some expert advice on the matter...cause I am in a RELATED industry.

And yes, I have been to a jobsite. That was a good one...I'm gonna laugh about that for a while.

When you dont know, you ask. I will continue to do so in the future as this is a quick and effective means of doing it. Thanks again to all of you who provided help. To all of you who provided negative comments or became fearful that a g.c. was trying to take away your work ( god help the first person who flips a breaker on in that building), I am sorry for you.
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Josh, we see a lot of questionable people asking scary questions from time to time. Or, all the time. So, a wary eye is cast on a person in your peculiar position.

When you get more time, I am totally confused about what the heck you are doing. :D
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Josh, Good luck with your project. Don't mind the ignorance of some people. We are all working for a living and your questions are welcome in my eyes.
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Josh,

I do similar work on a daily basis. Although I tend to stick just with the budget estimating of electrical and mechanical systems. we have other people that take care of the budget estimating for divisions 1 through 14. I worked for an electrical contractor for 7 years then this oportunity came up to work as an in house MEP consultant for a large GC. This has been a great move for me and this forum has been spectacular to read other peoples experiences about their work and code issues.

-Ed

P.S. I am not a big fan of RS Means and their estimating. But then again I have developed mine from NECA labor manual and actual supplier pricing.
 
Re: Misc. Electrical Estimating questions- HELP!!!!

Josh. Believe me when I tell you I do not need therapy. There are just to many GC's around here trying to slide though the cracks when they can trying to be electrican's. You would be correct in assuming that I'm very protective over what I consider is EC work and what is not. I will also report any GC trying to preform our trade and let the authorities do their job. The last clown was fined severely and I haven't seen his trucks for awhile.
 
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