More than 360 degrees

[ncsuper]

I have a hospital project with OSHPD inspectors. We have installed EMT feeder conduit systems with pull boxes to break into less than 360 degrees. We installed Southwire Simpull wire with a Maxxis tugger trigger foot switch with a tension meter. We never exceeded the Southwire recommended pulling tension with an inspector watching the entire pulling process. Here is the problem...we pulled through some of the pull boxes, exceeding the 360 degrees per pull. I have not been able to find anything in the CEC the says that I can't pull through more than 360 degrees just that I have to break the conduit. They are quoting CEC 358.26 which says, not more than 360 degrees between pull points. This has turned into a, "Non Compliance" and they are threatening to have us remove and repull all of the feeder wire. Do I have a leg to stand on?

 

[ptonsparky]

IMPO, a dang short leg and weak at the ankle.

 

[qcroanoke]

If it says between pull points you don't have anything to stand on.
Only thing you can hope for is if the inspector who watched you steps up and says it was a good pull.
I would not count on that.....

 

[cadpoint]

I don't know how the CEC see's pull points.

The NEC states it's application...

Good Luck with the watch of eyes!

 

[jusme123]

...IMO, a required pull point is just a point (within 360 degrees) at which the wire CAN be pulled OR lubricated for ease of pulling. The NEC in no way dictates the max. stress/strain a wire can take on pulls, that's the manufactures job. Are you required to pull wires out of the boxes, on vertical risers, that where installed for conductor support? Is it considered a pull point.
Give the inspector the Simpull Calc. link, and tell him the wire was pulled in as per manufactures specs..

 

[normbac]

I have a hospital project with OSHPD inspectors. We have installed EMT feeder conduit systems with pull boxes to break into less than 360 degrees. We installed Southwire Simpull wire with a Maxxis tugger trigger foot switch with a tension meter. We never exceeded the Southwire recommended pulling tension with an inspector watching the entire pulling process. Here is the problem...we pulled through some of the pull boxes, exceeding the 360 degrees per pull. I have not been able to find anything in the CEC the says that I can't pull through more than 360 degrees just that I have to break the conduit. They are quoting CEC 358.26 which says, not more than 360 degrees between pull points. This has turned into a, "Non Compliance" and they are threatening to have us remove and repull all of the feeder wire. Do I have a leg to stand on?

Is the inspector who oversaw the pull the one who is turning it down? Seems he should be on your side since he basically inspected before the pull and approved what you were doing.

 

[ron]

In the Ontario Elec Code (I don't have CEC)

12-902 Types of conductors and cables (see Appendix B)
(1) Conductors and cables shall be of types suitable for use in raceways as indicated in Table 19.
(2) Notwithstanding Subrule (1), armoured cables as described in Rule 12-602(6) shall be permitted to be
installed in a conduit or tubing provided that
(a) the installation will not result in a greater fill than that specified in Table 8; and
(b) the installation conforms to one of the following conditions:
(i) the length of cable pulled into the conduit or tubing does not result in the calculated maximum
pulling tension or the calculated maximum sidewall bearing pressure being exceeded

12-940 Maximum number of bends in raceways
Where it is intended that conductors are to be drawn into a raceway, a run of raceway between outlets or draw-in points shall not have more than the equivalent of four 90? bends, including the bends located at an outlet or fitting.

It would seem that it can be interpreted in a few ways.

 

[norcal]

The CEC in this case is the California Electrical Code, which is the 2008 NEC, according to this link. http://www.mikeholt.com/necadoptionlist.php



"On January 12, 2010, the Commission approved adoption of the 2010 California Building Code, 2010 California Residential Code, 2010 California Green Building Code, and the 2010 California Electrical Code, enforcement date of January 1, 2011. The building codes are based on the 2009 Editions of the ICC codes. The 2010 California Electrical Code (CEC) is based on the 2008 National Electrical Code with State amendments."

Bold by me.

 

[Smart $]

The CEC in this case is the California Electrical Code, which is the 2008 NEC, according to this link. http://www.mikeholt.com/necadoptionlist.php



"On January 12, 2010, the Commission approved adoption of the 2010 California Building Code, 2010 California Residential Code, 2010 California Green Building Code, and the 2010 California Electrical Code, enforcement date of January 1, 2011. The building codes are based on the 2009 Editions of the ICC codes. The 2010 California Electrical Code (CEC) is based on the 2008 National Electrical Code with State amendments."

Bold by me.

Here's the actual text...

358.26 Bends ? Number in One Run. There shall not be
more than the equivalent of four quarter bends (360
degrees total) between pull points, for example, conduit
bodies and boxes.

 

[Smart $]

.... Do I have a leg to stand on?

Yes.

The title of Article 358 is...

ARTICLE 358 - ELECTRICAL METALLIC TUBING: TYPE EMT

...and 358.26 is under...

II. Installation

Your EMT is compliant with the installation requirement. It is not a requirement for conductor/cable installation.

 

[david]

250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to Boxes.
Where circuit conductors are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding conductor(s) associated with those circuit conductors shall be connected within the box or to the box with devices suitable for the use in accordance with 250.148(A) through (E).
Where a metal box is used in a metal raceway system and there is a wire-type equipment grounding conductor installed in the raceway, it is not required that the wire-type equipment grounding conductor be connected to the pull box, provided the box is effectively grounded by the metal raceway and the circuit conductors are not spliced or terminated to equipment in the metal box. An example of this provision would be where conductors are run unbroken through a pull box.

ARTICLE 314 Outlet, Device, Pull, and Junction Boxes; Conduit Bodies; Fittings; and Handhole EnclosuresII. Installation
(B) Box Fill Calculations.
(1) Conductor Fill. Each conductor that originates outside the box and terminates or is spliced within the box shall be counted once,

and each conductor that passes through the box without splice or termination shall be counted once.

Each loop or coil of unbroken conductor not less than twice the minimum length required for free conductors in 300.14 shall be counted twice. The conductor fill shall be calculated using Table 314.16(B). A conductor, no part of which leaves the box, shall not be counted.

You could make point the NEC has calculations for wires that pass through a pull box. Making the comparison that conductors can be spliced pass through ore rolled unsliced in a pull box.

I am curious though what did your specifications say about wire pulls. Anytime we did anything associated with a hospital we had volume one and volume two of specification. If your specifications addresses this you most likely do not have any grounds to argue your point

 

[kwired]

Is the inspector who oversaw the pull the one who is turning it down? Seems he should be on your side since he basically inspected before the pull and approved what you were doing.

Or he is just an idiot (had to say something that wasn't too offensive) for watching you do something he sees as wrong and then turning it down when it is done.

Yes.

The title of Article 358 is...


...and 358.26 is under...



Your EMT is compliant with the installation requirement. It is not a requirement for conductor/cable installation.

Now can you tell him if it complies with CEC, which is what is being asked?

250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to Boxes.
Where circuit conductors are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding conductor(s) associated with those circuit conductors shall be connected within the box or to the box with devices suitable for the use in accordance with 250.148(A) through (E).
Where a metal box is used in a metal raceway system and there is a wire-type equipment grounding conductor installed in the raceway, it is not required that the wire-type equipment grounding conductor be connected to the pull box, provided the box is effectively grounded by the metal raceway and the circuit conductors are not spliced or terminated to equipment in the metal box. An example of this provision would be where conductors are run unbroken through a pull box.

ARTICLE 314 Outlet, Device, Pull, and Junction Boxes; Conduit Bodies; Fittings; and Handhole EnclosuresII. Installation
(B) Box Fill Calculations.
(1) Conductor Fill. Each conductor that originates outside the box and terminates or is spliced within the box shall be counted once,

and each conductor that passes through the box without splice or termination shall be counted once.

Each loop or coil of unbroken conductor not less than twice the minimum length required for free conductors in 300.14 shall be counted twice. The conductor fill shall be calculated using Table 314.16(B). A conductor, no part of which leaves the box, shall not be counted.

You could make point the NEC has calculations for wires that pass through a pull box. Making the comparison that conductors can be spliced pass through ore rolled unsliced in a pull box.

I am curious though what did your specifications say about wire pulls. Anytime we did anything associated with a hospital we had volume one and volume two of specification. If your specifications addresses this you most likely do not have any grounds to argue your point

The topic here is amount of deflection in the run between pulling points which is not addressed in the sections you mentioned.

 

[ncsuper]

david

david

The specification section, that is quoted in the "non compliance" is the same as CEC 358.26. There is nothing that addresses pulling 360 degrees max. The Inspectors can't find anything, in the code, that addresses conductor installation either.

250.148 Continuity and Attachment of Equipment Grounding Conductors to Boxes.
Where circuit conductors are spliced within a box, or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box, any equipment grounding conductor(s) associated with those circuit conductors shall be connected within the box or to the box with devices suitable for the use in accordance with 250.148(A) through (E).
Where a metal box is used in a metal raceway system and there is a wire-type equipment grounding conductor installed in the raceway, it is not required that the wire-type equipment grounding conductor be connected to the pull box, provided the box is effectively grounded by the metal raceway and the circuit conductors are not spliced or terminated to equipment in the metal box. An example of this provision would be where conductors are run unbroken through a pull box.

ARTICLE 314 Outlet, Device, Pull, and Junction Boxes; Conduit Bodies; Fittings; and Handhole EnclosuresII. Installation
(B) Box Fill Calculations.
(1) Conductor Fill. Each conductor that originates outside the box and terminates or is spliced within the box shall be counted once,

and each conductor that passes through the box without splice or termination shall be counted once.

Each loop or coil of unbroken conductor not less than twice the minimum length required for free conductors in 300.14 shall be counted twice. The conductor fill shall be calculated using Table 314.16(B). A conductor, no part of which leaves the box, shall not be counted.

You could make point the NEC has calculations for wires that pass through a pull box. Making the comparison that conductors can be spliced pass through ore rolled unsliced in a pull box.

I am curious though what did your specifications say about wire pulls. Anytime we did anything associated with a hospital we had volume one and volume two of specification. If your specifications addresses this you most likely do not have any grounds to argue your point

 

[david]

Or he is just an idiot (had to say something that wasn't too offensive) for watching you do something he sees as wrong and then turning it down when it is done.


Now can you tell him if it complies with CEC, which is what is being asked?

The topic here is amount of deflection in the run between pulling points which is not addressed in the sections you mentioned.

Ok sorry I thought the topic was 360 deg limitation to bends was being look at to mean that after reaching a max of 360 deg in a conduit run that the pull box had to be used as a pull location.

Since the OP pulled straight through the installed pull box regardless if safe tress limitations where maintained he was in non compliance for not limiting his pull locations to not exceed past 360 Deg in bends.

 

[david]

Limiting the amount of deflection ( by limiting the total deg. of bends) between point a and point b would help manage the amount of tress on the conductors during wire pulling.

Does that mean pull locations must correlate pull box locations or can it be justified that those locations can be used to limit pulling tress by application of wire lube?

I am not sure this should be such a big issue since most hospital specifications require conductors insulation to be verified after the conductors are pulled into the raceways.

 

[kwired]

Ok sorry I thought the topic was 360 deg limitation to bends was being look at to mean that after reaching a max of 360 deg in a conduit run that the pull box had to be used as a pull location.

Since the OP pulled straight through the installed pull box regardless if safe tress limitations where maintained he was in non compliance for not limiting his pull locations to not exceed past 360 Deg in bends.

You have pulling points available should they be necessary which is all code requires, nothing says you have to use the pull point as a pull point when installing conductors, NEC wise anyway don't know about CEC.

 

[iwire]

You have pulling points available should they be necessary which is all code requires, nothing says you have to use the pull point as a pull point when installing conductors, .

That is the point of this thread and while your opinion that counts as much as anyone's it is just an opinion.

In my own opinion the code section can be read either way.

 

[kwired]

That is the point of this thread and while your opinion that counts as much as anyone's it is just an opinion.

In my own opinion the code section can be read either way.

True, does that mean an inspector can choose which way to enforce this, or should he be open minded and accept either since that is what is written.

BTW the OP's problem is based on CEC and not NEC so we may not be helping by discussing NEC here, though it is an NEC forum:blink:

 

[iwire]

True, does that mean an inspector can choose which way to enforce this, or should he be open minded and accept either since that is what is written.

They can choose to be open minded I see no way to force them to be.

BTW the OP's problem is based on CEC and not NEC so we may not be helping by discussing NEC here, though it is an NEC forum:blink:

CEC = Calafonia Electrical Code = 2008 NEC

 

[jusme123]

...show me a section in either the NEC or CEC that states I must pull the wire out at every single pull point. There isn't one.