More than one service on a building

[mike1061]

What I have is a big building two stories high with about 10 - 15 seperate spaces with business's in them. The building currently has two 120/240 3 phase services. They are right next to each other. The drops and meters are in a back corner, they run underground to a utility closet in the middle of the building. The meters are in the owners name and all electricity is free to the tenants.
What they want to do is add a service to the building for one tenant.
Anybody see a way to do this? I think we could add another service of 120/240 single phase. But how would I get around all disconnects need to be grouped together, because they are under cement? It's not going to happen if they have to cut up the concrete floor.
So can I install a service drop and meter, then run around he side of the building and into the tenants space, with the disconnect at that point?
In Chicago.
Thanks
Mike

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am confused by your layout. You say there are drops- I assume 2 but how many meters are there? Are the meters on the outside and the service conductors going under the concrete to the middle of the building to disconnects?

Not sure how you can make it compliant but the disconnects for the entire building may not need to be grouped.

 

[kwired]

May want to talk to the AHJ and see whether or not they possibly consider some spaces to be able to be treated like they are a separate building if they have say a 2 hour fire wall between them. That is something allowed some places, even two spaces under same owner or management.

 

[mike1061]

I am confused by your layout. You say there are drops- I assume 2 but how many meters are there? Are the meters on the outside and the service conductors going under the concrete to the middle of the building to disconnects?

Not sure how you can make it compliant but the disconnects for the entire building may not need to be grouped.

Yes, there are two meters outside, two risers, two underground pipes that lead to two seperate main breaker panels.
No, there is actuly only one drop, both risers are connected to it. Sorry about that.
Thanks
Mike

 

[mike1061]

May want to talk to the AHJ and see whether or not they possibly consider some spaces to be able to be treated like they are a separate building if they have say a 2 hour fire wall between them. That is something allowed some places, even two spaces under same owner or management.

Or possably they could grant special permission. Thanks for the idea. Chicago is not easy to talk to.
Thanks
Mike

 

[augie47]

If you meet the criteria to add a second service, such as a different charismatic as you mentioned,
there is no requirement that the second service disconnect be grouped with the 1st service
disconnects. A location plaque as would be needed as noted in 230.2(E).
Sp, if you can get the utility to provide the single phase service, you can place that disconnect anywhere that meets 230.70.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes, there are two meters outside, two risers, two underground pipes that lead to two seperate main breaker panels.
No, there is actuly only one drop, both risers are connected to it. Sorry about that.
Thanks
Mike

That is one service not two

 

[mike1061]

That is one service not two

There completly seperate. The only time come in contact is the water pipe and ground rod. It's still one service?
Thanks
Mike

 

[mike1061]

If you meet the criteria to add a second service, such as a different charismatic as you mentioned,
there is no requirement that the second service disconnect be grouped with the 1st service
disconnects. A location plaque as would be needed as noted in 230.2(E).
Sp, if you can get the utility to provide the single phase service, you can place that disconnect anywhere that meets 230.70.

Thanks
Mike

 

[kwired]

There completly seperate. The only time come in contact is the water pipe and ground rod. It's still one service?
Thanks
Mike

It is one service with two disconnecting means.

Meters mean nothing as far as determining what is a NEC defined service, they can be ahead of or behind the service disconnecting means. Behind gets tricky with POCO as they don't want easy access to unmetered conductors - but this situation is usually in multi-tenant situations involving meter centers. You get an apartment building with 20 occupants you can't have 20 service disconnecting means, but you can have a meter center that incorporates a single service disconnect and then feeds the meter sections - which usually is designed to both meet NEC as well as limit access to the unmetered conductors.

 

[mike1061]

It is one service with two disconnecting means.

Meters mean nothing as far as determining what is a NEC defined service, they can be ahead of or behind the service disconnecting means. Behind gets tricky with POCO as they don't want easy access to unmetered conductors - but this situation is usually in multi-tenant situations involving meter centers. You get an apartment building with 20 occupants you can't have 20 service disconnecting means, but you can have a meter center that incorporates a single service disconnect and then feeds the meter sections - which usually is designed to both meet NEC as well as limit access to the unmetered conductors.

I am listening not arguing. But I still don't understand.
I understand about meters, I didn't mean two services because of two meters. I saw it as two services because they do not even touch each other, except at the water pipe and they are connected to the same service drop conductors. I said they were connected to the same ground rod, but that was a mistake. If you saw each one, you would say that it was a complete service by itself. If they were on different corners of the building would they still be one service with two disconnect means? It not, how far apart would they need to be, to be considered different services? If in this situation if there was a wall between the two disconnect panels, putting them in seperate closets, would that make them seperate services?
Or if there was a situation where there was a 2 unit building with one wall sererating two stores. The service drop on the rear wall with two risers and meters next two each other. The pipes go out of the back of the meters into a closet with a disconnect for each store. Then a guy buys the building and converts it into one store. He removes the wall seperating the two stores. Now is it one service or two?

Your apartment building example is different. You have one set of service conductors or parelell conductors joined at one location, then split to the individule units, that are metered.

Thanks
Mike

 

[kwired]

I am listening not arguing. But I still don't understand.
I understand about meters, I didn't mean two services because of two meters. I saw it as two services because they do not even touch each other, except at the water pipe and they are connected to the same service drop conductors. I said they were connected to the same ground rod, but that was a mistake. If you saw each one, you would say that it was a complete service by itself. If they were on different corners of the building would they still be one service with two disconnect means? It not, how far apart would they need to be, to be considered different services? If in this situation if there was a wall between the two disconnect panels, putting them in seperate closets, would that make them seperate services?
Or if there was a situation where there was a 2 unit building with one wall sererating two stores. The service drop on the rear wall with two risers and meters next two each other. The pipes go out of the back of the meters into a closet with a disconnect for each store. Then a guy buys the building and converts it into one store. He removes the wall seperating the two stores. Now is it one service or two?

Your apartment building example is different. You have one set of service conductors or parelell conductors joined at one location, then split to the individule units, that are metered.

Thanks
Mike

Start with 230.40 which says "Each service drop, set of overhead service conductors, set of underground service conductors, or service lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors."

Then consider 230.2 which says "A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D). For the purpose of 230.40, Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected together at their supply end but not connected together at their load end shall be considered to be supplying one service."

Then comes 230.71, within there it says "There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location."

Put all that together and you can only supply one service with one service drop, lateral, or other underground set of service conductors, it must supply six or less, with some exceptions, disconnecting means that must be grouped in one location, also with some exceptions. Those exceptions mentioned are typically for fire pumps, emergency systems, etc. There is also 230.2(B)(1) that may allow multiple services to a multiple occupancy building with no space for service equipment accessible to all occupants but it doesn't give any other conditions and leaves a lot of room for AHJ to be able to make their own decisions for allowing this one.

So unless you have a different characteristic like different voltage, number of phases, etc. you need to supply everything through one service, though 230.2(C) does allow more services where it is excessively large capacity needed in some instances as well, but you are looking at over 2000 amps in most of those cases (maybe only 600 to 1000 amps for single phase depending on utility company).

 

[kwired]

Further comments with more direct answer to specific questions:

if there was a wall between the two disconnect panels, putting them in seperate closets, would that make them seperate services?

It either makes them separate services or a violation of grouping of the service disconnecting means. Other factors need consideration to determine if there is any violation - and some local rules often pop up in this kind of situation.

Or if there was a situation where there was a 2 unit building with one wall sererating two stores. The service drop on the rear wall with two risers and meters next two each other. The pipes go out of the back of the meters into a closet with a disconnect for each store. Then a guy buys the building and converts it into one store. He removes the wall seperating the two stores. Now is it one service or two?

It was most likely two services originally, now you have made what was considered two buildings or at least two occupancies that were allowed to be supplied separately into one occupancy that now has two disconnecting means not grouped in one location.

Your apartment building example is different. You have one set of service conductors or parelell conductors joined at one location, then split to the individule units, that are metered.

My apartment building example was not as different as you think - forget the meters they mean nothing - you still have one service disconnecting means and multiple feeders on the load side of the service disconnect to supply each apartment. NEC doesn't care where you place the meter - could be at the service loacation (which is what is typical), could be middle of the feeders somewhere or even in each apartment right before the panel. POCO usually prefers near the service equipment and wants least amount of accessibility possible to unmetered conductors.

 

[mike1061]

It is one service with two disconnecting means.

Meters mean nothing as far as determining what is a NEC defined service, they can be ahead of or behind the service disconnecting means. Behind gets tricky with POCO as they don't want easy access to unmetered conductors - but this situation is usually in multi-tenant situations involving meter centers. You get an apartment building with 20 occupants you can't have 20 service disconnecting means, but you can have a meter center that incorporates a single service disconnect and then feeds the meter sections - which usually is designed to both meet NEC as well as limit access to the unmetered conductors.

Sorry, I'm trying to address this statement. "It is one service with two disconnecting means." And your explamation.

 

[mike1061]

That is one service not two

And this comment.

The replies after these two are meant to try to make what is there clear, so you guys can answer properly.

I think that the existing service is two seperate services and is not in complaiance, but I don't care that much, because it is existing. If it is just one service as you seem to be saying, I want to understand how it is.

Thanks
Mike

 

[charlie b]

I think this is an example of "languange getting in the way of communication." The word "service" is being used in more than one context, and you are getting the two confused. Each of the two meters is providing power to a separate panel. You appear to be using the word "service" to describe each of the two panels receiving power from each of the two meters. From the perspective of "conversational English," that is a common way to describe the situation. However, from the perspective of the NEC language, the word "service" means that there is an electric utility on the other end of the wire. In your installation, the utility is providing only one set of wires. The owner is splitting that set of wires through the use of two meters. But the utility is still only providing one "service."

Does that clear things up?

 

[mike1061]

Start with 230.40 which says "Each service drop, set of overhead service conductors, set of underground service conductors, or service lateral shall supply only one set of service-entrance conductors."

Then consider 230.2 which says "A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D). For the purpose of 230.40, Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected together at their supply end but not connected together at their load end shall be considered to be supplying one service."

Then comes 230.71, within there it says "There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location."

Put all that together and you can only supply one service with one service drop, lateral, or other underground set of service conductors, it must supply six or less, with some exceptions, disconnecting means that must be grouped in one location,

So unless you have a different characteristic like different voltage, number of phases, etc. you need to supply everything through one service

And these are the reasons I was asking how I could put another service on the building. Or if it's possable. I edited out some stuff that I didn't already know, or thought it didn't apply.



It seemed that I could, if I added a service a 1 phase serivce to a building with 3 phase service, I could put it in a different place. Going by "augie47" reply. That way I need not group the disconnects.
Thanks
Mike

 

[mike1061]

I think this is an example of "languange getting in the way of communication." The word "service" is being used in more than one context, and you are getting the two confused. Each of the two meters is providing power to a separate panel. You appear to be using the word "service" to describe each of the two panels receiving power from each of the two meters. From the perspective of "conversational English," that is a common way to describe the situation. However, from the perspective of the NEC language, the word "service" means that there is an electric utility on the other end of the wire. In your installation, the utility is providing only one set of wires. The owner is splitting that set of wires through the use of two meters. But the utility is still only providing one "service."

Does that clear things up?

It does and I have to let that set in for a minute.
Thanks
Mike

 

[mike1061]

It's very intresting.
I think that is what happened. I thought that the service was from the point of attachment in (the whole thing) and the service drop or lateral was from the point of attachment out. Each part, then had a name, riser, meter, disconnect, feeder and so on.
The people I know, say the are doing a service, or changing a service, they don't consider the service drop. So when you upgrade the service you just change from the attachment point in. The rest is the power company.
Is there a name for just the point of attachment and in?

Sometimes it seems the more you try to explain, the less clear it is.
Thanks
Mike

 

[kwired]

It's very intresting.
I think that is what happened. I thought that the service was from the point of attachment in (the whole thing) and the service drop or lateral was from the point of attachment out. Each part, then had a name, riser, meter, disconnect, feeder and so on.
The people I know, say the are doing a service, or changing a service, they don't consider the service drop. So when you upgrade the service you just change from the attachment point in. The rest is the power company.
Is there a name for just the point of attachment and in?

Sometimes it seems the more you try to explain, the less clear it is.
Thanks
Mike

POCO may call each meter a separate service from the perspective that each meter is related to a separate billing account for the service that they sell - delivery of electrical energy.

When we are asking whether something is a NEC violation we need to use NEC terminology or what is already possibly confusing becomes even more confusing. Service is a defined term by the NEC, as well as other terms with the word service in them.

So according to NEC terminology one service drop is to supply one service - that service may have more then one disconnecting means per other NEC sections, as well as requirements to where they may or may not be located on the premises.