Motor Protection

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kingpb

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I received a question regarding setting of MCCB's for motor protection. it required I develop some a protection curve to illustrate the differences between using an MCP and MCCB in combination with the Code required O/L.

View attachment 1574

The point illustrated is that an MCCB can be used, however it does not provide as good of protection during starting, or in the case of low level short circuit; an MCP will trip sooner. The MCP clearly mimics the initial motor starting curve much more closely.

Visual is just better then words sometimes.
 
Should the (I^2)T curve be shown anywhere on this graph, as a reference line? Do they bother with (I^2)T anymore or do they tailor the whole trip curve into separate regions, each region almost independently adjustable?

Not your grandfather's CB.
 
On a power circuit breaker trip units you would still have the I^2t function, or in the cases where a more sophisticated protection device is used you might also have that function. Typical MCP-O/L combination would not have that capability.
 
Your graph illustrates a Thermal-Mag (TM) MCCB with fixed thermal and fixed magnetic trips, which is the case only on the cheapest versions. Many of the better TM MCCBs are now coming with adjustable magnetic trips and the adjustment settings are exactly the same as on Mag-Only (MCP) breakers. So in those cases, there would be essentially no difference.

In the past when TM breakers were almost always fixed trip on moth elements, the Mag-Only breakers definitely provided better protection with less nuisance tripping. Now that off-the-shelf breaker offerings are changing, the only reason why some manufacturers continue to use Mag-Only breakers in starters is because they already have the OL relays and don't need the thermal elements, so it saves them a little money.

And of course, nobody can use Mag-Only breakers in the field to build their own starters, so the TM breakers with adjustable mag trips are the only option.

Just a minor point of picky semantics, MCCB describes the entire product group. An "MCP" (old Westinghouse trade marked acronym by the way) is still an MCCB, as is a TM breaker.
 
OK, so back to basics.

Isn't (I^2)T always necessary to limit fault current heating, because heating is the danger?

To eliminate nuisance tripping the IT curve would have to follow the normal startup current curves but be shifted by some amount of I or T?

Tripping on I only would be for a very fast trip due to some huge fault current?

They are designed not to trip, ever, on ~115% of rated value?

The values are more-or-less insensitive to ambient temp as long as it's under some spec value?

Thanks.

(I'm waiting on spec sheets and literature on logic-controlled breakers. No immediate app., just education.
I think all these intelligent components that talk to each other will make troubleshooting a nightmare, if you ever have to).
 
As I was looking at the picture I saw:

MCP
Westinghouse
MCP
MCPID = 03150R
Size = 15 Amps
Trip = 126.49 Amps

and the curve was straight up second after second and minute after minute. . So my question is: What makes it a 15 Amp Size if it never trips at 15 Amps, no matter how much time goes by ?
 
it never trips at 15 Amps, no matter how much time goes by

it never trips at 15 Amps, no matter how much time goes by

I was afraid to bring up asymptotes, but yeah, it's supposed to reach 15 amps at time = infinity.

"A line whose distance to a given curve tends to zero. An asymptote may or may not intersect its associated curve."
http://www.answers.com/topic/asymptote?cat=technology

The other thing occurs to me is that if (I^2)T = a constant, one axis would have to be a reciprocal scale if you want to see a straight line for this part of the curve; log or linear axes won't show this relationship as a straight line. The other straight line is supposed to be 15 amps. The actual breaker curve is bounded by these two lines.

We're definitely having fun now.
 
Isn't (I^2)T always necessary to limit fault current heating, because heating is the danger?
Yes, so what's your point? You can ONLY use the MCP if there is also an OL relay, which is providing the I^2t protection.

To eliminate nuisance tripping the IT curve would have to follow the normal startup current curves but be shifted by some amount of I or T?
Not exactly sure what you mean here, but I'll try.
No, the starting current must still fit within the same curve. The motor curve is a thermal damage curve, it knows not from whence the therms came :) . But the INRUSH current of the motor, that which represents the extremely short duration of magnetization current, can on occasion be too high for the magnetic trips of a circuit breaker and give nuisance tripping. Happens quite a bit actually, hence the need for adjustable instantaneous trips.

Tripping on I only would be for a very fast trip due to some huge fault current?
What do you mean by "I only"? It's all I (as in current). ;)
But assuming you mean I as in Instantaneous, then yes, the Instantaneous tripping is there only to provide short circuit and ground fault protection, NOT overloading.

They are designed not to trip, ever, on ~115% of rated value?
Which "they" are you referring to? The instantaneous trips will not trip at even 800% of rated value. But assuming you switched to referring to the thermal trips of the TM circuit breaker, then it is 125% max and appears to be 115% minimum. But don't forget that you cannot load a breaker to more than 80% of its rating, because you cannot use wire that is sized for less than 125% of the load. (excepting 100% rated breakers for the purpose of this discussion). So although it appears that the breaker will allow 125% of rated current, continuously, it will not really be doing that in the field if you compare that to the wire ratings because you can only put a 16A load on a 20A MCCB. Remember, the breaker is there to protect the wire. The overload relay, which you will notice has a much lower threshold, is what is protecting the motor. In the case of a mag-only breaker + OL relay combo then, the amount of continuous current allowed to flow in the circuit is even lower.

The values are more-or-less insensitive to ambient temp as long as it's under some spec value?
All breaker trip values are shown at 40 degrees C and must be compensated for at temperatures above that. There is some argument as to the necessity to adjust for extremely low temperatures as well, I have yet to see a definitive answer on that. Altitude must be taken into consideration as well. Most are based on 2000m or less.
 
dnem said:
...and the curve was straight up second after second and minute after minute. . So my question is: What makes it a 15 Amp Size if it never trips at 15 Amps, no matter how much time goes by ?

A motor circuit protection breaker (magnetic only) will never trip on thermal. It carries a 15A rating primarily for marketing purposes, terminal size and magnetic adjustablity as a % of full load (usually limited to 17x) for easier compliance with the NEC . It is intended that this breaker will be protected by a thermal device rated no more than 15A.
 
dnem said:
So my question is: What makes it a 15 Amp Size if it never trips at 15 Amps, no matter how much time goes by ?

That is actually just the continuous current capacity of the power path components of the breaker; the contacts, internal bus bars, mag trip element, terminals etc. That rating, on a mag-only breaker, has nothing to do with the trip function.

Edit: Jim's explanation is even better, he added the part that it must be protected by a 15A thermal element somewhere (crossed in cyberspace).
 
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jraef

jraef

Thanks. I have to think about these answers for a while.
 
Kingpb. . .?

Kingpb. . .?

Can you give me a make/model reference for an OL relay?

The force, F, moving the relay armature depends on amp-turns, amperes through the coil winding turns. I guess I can get to some normalized trip time by using F=mA, with acceleration going up with F going up with amp-turns and with the distance covered by the accelerating armature being constant.
 
Lxnxjxhx said:
Can you give me a make/model reference for an OL relay?

The force, F, moving the relay armature depends on amp-turns, amperes through the coil winding turns. I guess I can get to some normalized trip time by using F=mA, with acceleration going up with F going up with amp-turns and with the distance covered by the accelerating armature being constant.

No, OL relays do not work that way. They are thermal devices. They come in 3 flavors; Bimetal, Melting Alloy and Solid State.

Bimetal relays work from having the current pass through a strip of two dissimilar metals fused together. Because the metals expand with heat at different rates, they bend. The bending activates the trip mechanism when current through the strip exceeds the rating.

Melting alloy relays use a spring loaded pawl embedded into a eutectic alloy (solder) that melts at a specific temperature, designed around the desired current rating. When current exceeds the rating, the alloy liquefies and the springs are free to make the pawl to rotate, tripping the mechanism.

Solid state OL relays use transducers for turning the running current to very low levels, then an A/D chip to digitize it and feed it into a small DSP or mP that runs a thermal model algorithm of the motor thermal damage curve.
 
Jraef said:
No, OL relays do not work that way. They are thermal devices. They come in 3 flavors; Bimetal, Melting Alloy and Solid State.

You missed the 4th type

Bimetalic and Melting Alloy are thermal
Magnetic and Solid State are not thermal, they're based on size of the magnetic field
 
dnem said:
You missed the 4th type

Bimetalic and Melting Alloy are thermal
Magnetic and Solid State are not thermal, they're based on size of the magnetic field
Wow, I hadn't heard/seen anyone mention a Magnetic Overload Relay since the days of the old Ward Leonard relays in Navy applications... forgot all about them. So OK, there are 4 flavors.

While I agree that a solid state OL relay does base it's sensor input from a magnetic field, the principal of operation is actually to mimic a thermal OL relay. They have a "thermal register" which tracks the i^2t of the motor, just like a bimetal thermal relay would.
 
Jraef said:
Wow, I hadn't heard/seen anyone mention a Magnetic Overload Relay since the days of the old Ward Leonard relays in Navy applications... forgot all about them. So OK, there are 4 flavors.

I think you'd be surprised at how many magnetics there are in use out there. . They work great for applications where they want to be able to set the cool down time after an overload.
 
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