Multi-pole ltg ckt

[echap]

Good morning - I have a question for the group.

I am working in an existing manufacturing facility that we changed the 250 400W metal halide fixtures out to the energy efficient 8 lamp T8 F-bay type fixtures. We basically changed them out one for one re-using the existing 277V circuits. These existing circuits were fed from an older Square D NEHB type panel with EHB 1p/20A circuit breakers. There are 3 circuits sharing a neutral typically. The inspector is asking me to add a handle tie to the existing breakers that form the multi-pole branch circuit.

I would like to argue with him that we are not changing the branch wiring, so this should be grandfathered in, but maybe I should just add the handle ties if it's cheap and pick another battle on a different issue as we are also adding several new lines of production equipment in Michigan no less, so I am happy to have the work.

My problem is that my local distributor cannot locate a handle tie for these breaker types. Does anyone know what I can use to make him happy?

We are behind the rest of the country as the state on MI just adpoted the 2005 NEC last November so we are just starting to see some of the new items that you guys have been seeing for a while now.:roll:

Thanks,
Eric

 

[jjseabra]

I would ask the inspector to give you the time needed to get the breaker ties ordered and installed. This is a battle you dont want to fight - and should concede and fight another one.

 

[raider1]

There is no requirement in the 2005 NEC for multiwire branch circuits that feed lighting loads as you have described to have a handle tie.

I would politely ask the inspector what code reference he is using to require the handle ties.

JMHO,

Chris

 

[LarryFine]

I would ask the inspector to give you the time needed to get the breaker ties ordered and installed. This is a battle you dont want to fight - and should concede and fight another one.

Disagree.

There is no requirement in the 2005 NEC for multiwire branch circuits that feed lighting loads as you have described to have a handle tie.

I would politely ask the inspector what code reference he is using to require the handle ties.

Agree.

 

[quogueelectric]

preixisting nonconforming in my opinion.

 

[iwire]

preixisting nonconforming in my opinion.

Until the 2008 NEC came out there was no requirement for handle ties on these circuits.

 

[frenchelectrican]

preixisting nonconforming in my opinion.

Until the 2008 NEC came out there was no requirement for handle ties on these circuits.

Both are right answer to this situation.

and what more if the luminaries you been replacing if have cord et plug attachment on it it will not affected at all however hardwire it may change a bit but with exsting setup no handle ties are needed.

Merci,Marc

 

[iwire]

Marc, the person asking the question is on the 2005 NEC, there is no violation. :smile:

 

[jjseabra]

Very true - but again it boils down to the AHJ. Regardless of what the code says if he wont bend on this issue, he will have no choice.

 

[iwire]

Very true - but again it boils down to the AHJ. Regardless of what the code says if he wont bend on this issue, he will have no choice.

No, it is not 'up to the AHJ' unless they have a local amendment.

That is like saying the police can make up a law at anytime and start enforcing it.

 

[LarryFine]

preixisting nonconforming in my opinion.

Until the 2008 NEC came out there was no requirement for handle ties on these circuits.

Both are right answer to this situation.

They can't both be right! :-?

 

[LarryFine]

Very true - but again it boils down to the AHJ. Regardless of what the code says if he wont bend on this issue, he will have no choice.

Kowtowing to incorrect rulings sets a bad precedence. It's just as illegal to fail something improperly as it is to pass something improperly.

 

[raider1]

No, it is not 'up to the AHJ' unless they have a local amendment.

That is like saying the police can make up a law at anytime and start enforcing it.

I agree, well said.

Chris

 

[echap]

Thanks for the insight. I have been reading the 2005 code (which we are under) and I don't see where it is required. I have heard that it's in the 08 code, but I don't have a book yet, and Michigan won't adopt for a couple years at best.

I'll ask the inspector for a code reference.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[echap]

update

update

I spoke with the inspector yesterday and he told me that he mentioned it to the owner's rep as "a good idea to do". The owner's rep thought it was a requirement. After I pushed a little, he is not requiring it, but will when the 2008 code is adopted.

We just did the code update class last fall for 2005, so this requirement caught me off guard as I have not even ween a 2008 book yet, let alone read about it.

Thanks for your help here. I read allot but rarely post and was in fact surprised that this was my first posting here in this thread, although maybe I had any login that I have forgotten about. Thanks Again!

 

[raider1]

The new 2008 requirement for multiwire branch circuits to have a handle tie is in 210.4(B).

210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits.(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates.

Chris