Multiple breakers not working properly.

[aelectricalman]

Man comes home from vacation to notice that some breakers were on but no juice to the supply source. There was no method to the madness; (ie every other breaker, etc.) If you had two guesses, would they match mine. There were breakers from BOTH legs that were out.

A. Transformer going bad.

B. Lose Feeders. Both, not that probable

Mental note: There were storms in the area during his vacation week. Cant rule out, but must keep open mind. Customer says when he returned home, he noticed the breakers were on, but no juice. Upon turning the breakers off and back on, there was still no power in some breakers until 30 minutes later. Also, customers neighbor reported that his clocks were blinking when he got home yesterday. Neighbor on other side reported that power remained on. Panel was just upgraded 3 months ago. Could this be lightning causing this. If it were lightning, seems the breakers would trip, not remain on without power. Cutler hammer BR panel in home, so you can tell when triped.

Likely culperate in my head is XFMR going bad, but Im still alittle wet behind the ears. Or maybe it could be a load balance issue. Is that likely? Thanks for any help or direction.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Multiple breakers not working properly.

First thing that comes to my mind is there is a main feeder terminal loose somewhere, as you suggested. It can be anywhere between the transformer and the panel.

Check with the neighbor who had no outage, and at least one on the other side of the house, and see whether anyone on the same transformer had the problem.

If the services are buried, you may have to check with the POCO engineering department. If mobody else had an outage, it's this service's lateral or drop.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Multiple breakers not working properly.

You said that he said that the breakers were "on." Do you think he knows that breakers have three positions, and not two? Does he know the difference between "on" and "trip free"? If he thought it was on, but then turned it off and on again, and then it worked, I would guess that they had tripped. That could have been caused by lightning or by a loose connection, as has already been suggested.

What confuses me is his statement that he turned the breaker off and then on, but still there was no power, and that 30 minutes later it worked. What it sounds like he is saying is that there is some power in the house; some lights are on. OK. That means that the panel itself is energized. Then he says that some loads do not have power, even though the breaker is on. OK. See my comment above, concerning "trip free." Next he says he turns a breaker off, then on, and still has no power to the load. So now it is getting strange: Power to the panel, breaker closed, no power to the load. But next he says the power to the load comes back in 30 minutes. My only explanation is that half the panel was dead, and the other half (including the neutral) was live. That means there was a problem at the transformer. No other explanation fits.

But I wouldn't accept his description at face value. I would ask some detailed, pointed questions about this scenario. I don't think he is describing it correctly. He may be doing his best to tell what he thinks he knows, but I don't think he has the symptoms right.

 

[apauling]

Re: Multiple breakers not working properly.

It can be as simple as CB says, or it can be complex, a compilation failures whether related or not. How did he know that a circuit was blown? If he just checked lights, it might be the lights, and if a lightning strike, there are even more possibilities with originally installed marginal connections, including breaker screws, damaged appliances. Too many possibilities assuming that both legs are irregular, but i would switch breakers to check that possibility. it sounds like an against the odds group of bad breakers, assuming of course that he actually fully turned the breakers off before turning them on.

I have had new equipment fail in this manner, but not multiples. If afci breakers, there might be some hidden damage, loose connections in panel.

lots of possibilities requiring an electrician on site to determine actual situation.

paul

 

[haskindm]

Re: Multiple breakers not working properly.

Any time unexplainable electrical events like this happen the first thing to check is for a loose neutral connection somewhere. Some things will work because they end up as series loads on a 240-volt circuit. Some lights will be dim, others bright. I saw one job where everything was fine as long as the water pump was running. When the water pump stopped 1/2 the house was without power. Always check neutrals first. I had a call one time where things were acting strange and we called the power company to check their neutral at the pole-mounted transformer. The lineman came out, stood on the ground and shined his flashlight up the pole at the connections and pronounced them "fine". We finally got the power company to send another lineman who went up the pole and found a badly corroded neutral connection that was making and breaking.
Were the two breakers checked to make sure that there was no current through them or was it assumed that because the loads were inoperative that no power was available? The hot may have been present but no continuity on the grounded (neutral) conductor.

[ August 16, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: haskindm ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Multiple breakers not working properly.

Originally posted by haskindm:
The lineman came out, stood on the ground and shined his flashlight up the pole at the connections and pronounced them "fine".

Well, shoot. The flashlight test reveals all, that's always my tie-breaker.