Multiple GFCI receptacles behind a DF breaker?

[mbbush]

I've got someone telling me that for a combination light/fan mounted above a shower in a single family residence in California, there needs to be separate feed-through GFCI receptacles accessible in the bathroom for the fan part and the light part. This seems exceptionally silly to me. If there's a ground fault, I don't want the unit half live, I want it all dead. And making it even more silly, the entire circuit is on a Dual Function breaker that provides ground fault protection for personnel to the entire circuit.

I've searched high and low in the NEC, including looking at the California-specific requirements, and can't find anything to support this. Any idea where he might be getting this from?

210.8 mandates

Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (F). The ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.

but then goes on to only list requirements for GFCI protection for receptacles, not general outlets (such as lights or the exhaust fan). Elsewhere in the code, such as the requirements for arc fault breakers, it's pretty clear that the circuit breaker counts as "readily accessible".

410.10 mandates that luminaries directly over a bathtub or shower be marked suitable for damp or wet locations, but doesn't mention ground fault protection.

The only place I found a mandate for ground fault protection of a luminary located above a shower or tub is in 552.54 (B), which applies to "park trailers not covered fully under articles 510 or 511"

(B) Shower Luminaires. If a luminaire is provided over a bathtub or in a shower stall, it shall be of the enclosed and gasketed type and listed for the type of installation, and it shall be ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected.

Ground fault protection is a very valuable safety measure, IMHO even more important than arc fault protection, but I don't see the advantage of, or requirement to provide it multiple times when it's already provided by the branch circuit breaker.

AHJ uses 2022 California Electrical Code, based on 2020 NEC.

 

[ptonsparky]

Not required that I'm aware of.
Please note I'm not in California.

 

[LarryFine]

Welcome to the forum.

"Someone" is incorrect.

 

[Little Bill]

Usually, the NEC is silent on GFCI protection for lights and bath fans. It's the mfg that specifies it.
As to the OP, if the circuit has a DF breaker already, no additional GFCI is needed.
I'm wondering why the bath has a DF breaker to start with. It's not required.

 

[ramsy]

AHJ uses 2022 California Electrical Code, based on 2020 NEC.

Perhaps for the last 30yrs, the applicable NEC requirement to comply with listed OEM instruction or specs is 110.3(B), and 410.10 identified the shower zone, typically called out by bath-fan instructions.

 

[cadpoint]

Maybe and I'm going out on a thin limb, your someone is hung up on the bath fan combo aspect of protection,
in that there is (sometimes) a single receptacle in the combo to ease future fan replacement.

 

[LarryFine]

Integral fan receptacles are specifically exempt from GFCI requirements,

 

[mbbush]

Perhaps for the last 30yrs, the applicable NEC requirement to comply with listed OEM instruction or specs is 110.3(B), and 410.10 identified the shower zone, typically called out by bath-fan instructions.

Bingo! The good ol' RTFM code section. Thanks for pointing that out, for some reason I didn't think to check the installation instructions.

From the installation instructions:

If this unit is to be installed over a tub or shower, it must be marked as appropriate for the
application and be connected to a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) - protected branch
circuit.
These models are UL listed for tub and shower enclosures.

I suspect my deliberately-vague "someone" is either applying business-as-usual practices without thinking about it too much, or making up additional requirements to increase the scope of work and price (from which he stands to gain). Or perhaps some combination of the two.

 

[ramsy]

I suspect my deliberately-vague "someone" is either applying business-as-usual practices without thinking about it too much, or making up additional requirements to increase the scope of work and price (from which he stands to gain). Or perhaps some combination of the two.

Keeping your GFCI reset buttons convenient at point of use, without the cost of GFCI breakers, only works if load feeding from first opening duplex if each bath gets a dedicated line for duplex & lights, per 210.11(C)(3) Exception.

 

[letgomywago]

I'll add the only time I will do redundant gfi is when I feel like there is a good chance that after I leave someone other than me will rip out the dualfunction and replace with a regular breaker. If I use a dualfunction in a kitchen becuse that is what was availble for afci in stock for the counter outlets I'll sometimes still put a gfci device in. This has been something I have come across in the past.

California allows the 3 trades loophole so don't expect someone to just know they may or may not understand and know it all.

Now the bathroom isn't a location that afci is required so if there is a homerun to that bathroom gfi then it could be used to run that fan. This could be what the plan is for it I'm not sure. Some "electricans" can't figure out what needs gfci and afci so they just put it everywhere. Those same individuals will put gfci devices on every outlet in a garage not because of wanting to avoid nuisance trips but because they don't understand feed through or how to avoid mixing nuetrals and forget what readily accessible means when it comes to the gfci they put on the ceiling for the opener.

 

[mbbush]

Keeping your GFCI reset buttons convenient at point of use, without the cost of GFCI breakers, only works if load feeding from first opening duplex if each bath gets a dedicated line for duplex & lights, per 210.11(C)(3) Exception.

I'm confused. It sounds like the 210.11(C)(3) Exception directly contradicts the 210.23 (A) exception. Which one wins?

The 210.11 (C) (3) exception allows the required 20 amp circuit for bathroom(s) receptacle outlet(s) to also supply "outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom" as long as the circuit is only serving a single bathroom, as long as you also follow 210.23 (A)(1) and (A)(2)

But the 210.23 (A) exception says that the bathroom branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

So if I've got a 20A circuit dedicated to a single bathroom, can I use it for things like lights, exhaust fan, or other non-receptacle outlets? Or not?

I can see value in keeping a reset button at the point of use. But I don't see any reason to use two different reset buttons for two different loads that are on the same circuit and physically contained in the same enclosure.

 

[letgomywago]

I'm confused. It sounds like the 210.11(C)(3) Exception directly contradicts the 210.23 (A) exception. Which one wins?

The 210.11 (C) (3) exception allows the required 20 amp circuit for bathroom(s) receptacle outlet(s) to also supply "outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom" as long as the circuit is only serving a single bathroom, as long as you also follow 210.23 (A)(1) and (A)(2)

But the 210.23 (A) exception says that the bathroom branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

So if I've got a 20A circuit dedicated to a single bathroom, can I use it for things like lights, exhaust fan, or other non-receptacle outlets? Or not?

I can see value in keeping a reset button at the point of use. But I don't see any reason to use two different reset buttons for two different loads that are on the same circuit and physically contained in the same enclosure.

There are 2 code compliant options for residential bathrooms.
1 circuit does the whole thing for the 1 room

Or atleast 1 circuit supplies 2 or bathrooms receptacles only.

You can't have 2 bathroom's outlets and a fan but you can have 1 bathroom outlet and fan so long as it's the same room

You can have 2 bathroom's outlets on a circuit and a separate lighting circuit that does the bathroom and the bedroom and has a dualfunction to cover the manufacturer recommendations for the fan to have gfi and the code requirement to afci the bedroom.

 

[ramsy]

I'm confused. It sounds like the 210.11(C)(3) Exception directly contradicts the 210.23 (A) exception. Which one wins?

All we deal with is 210.23(A)(1 & 2).
1) Prohibits cord & plugs loads > 1920W
2) Prohibits fastened in place > 1200W

No built-in heaters, except ~1200W IR bulb