Multiple occupancy dwelling grounding electrode conductor termination

slc410

Member
Was wondering if anyone could direct me to the code article that pertains to the termination of the grounding electrode conductor in a multiple occupancy dwelling. The situation I have is a two level house with split occupancy service (service upstairs and one downstairs). There is no main disco that disconnects power to the entire house. From the meters outside there is one conduit to the inside of the basement straight into the panel for the downstairs occupancy, then a connecting conduit from that panel to the other panel for the upstairs. So when running the grounding electrode conductor, does it matter which panel the GEC terminates in?
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Electrician
Let me get this straight, there are unfused conductors passing through the basement panel (which has fused conductors in it) to a panel upstairs, is this the case?

Roger
 

slc410

Member
Let me get this straight, there are unfused conductors passing through the basement panel (which has fused conductors in it) to a panel upstairs, is this the case?

Roger
The panel for upstairs is actually in the basement mounted a foot away from the first floor panel. Yes, the service conductors for the second floor panel pass through the first floor panel
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The gec needs to be from both panels but as I stated the system is non compliant. You could terminate the gec in the meter outside
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Electrician
The panel for upstairs is actually in the basement mounted a foot away from the first floor panel. Yes, the service conductors for the second floor panel pass through the first floor panel
As Dennis says, you have other issues besides the GEC.

Roger
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
How many meters? I ask this because the OP said this:
From the meters outside there is one conduit to the inside of the basement straight into the panel for the downstairs occupancy, then a connecting conduit from that panel to the other panel for the upstairs.
Or did they use the down stairs panel as a raceway.

I agree with Dennis, you have other problems to worry about.

Please clarify
 
Last edited:

slc410

Member
How many meters? I ask this because the OP said this: Or did they use the down stairs panel as a raceway.

I agree with Dennis, you have other problems to worry about.

Please clarify
Both panels for the 1st floor residence and 2nd floor residence are in the basement which is a common use basement, meaning there is laundry equipment for both residences.

There are two meters outside. One for the 1st floor residence and one for the 2nd floor.

The service mast connects to one meter, the meters are nippled and then a conduit from the second meter, with both sets of service conductors, runs into the basement where it connects to the panel supplying the 1st floor. The service conductors for 1st floor terminate in this panel

There is a 1' nipple between the panel supplying 1st floor and the panel supplying 2nd floor.

So the service conductors for the panel supplying 2nd floor pass through the panel supplying 1st floor. Meaning that these service conductors are using the 1st floor panel as a raceway.

This is an existing installation, roughly 15 years old. When I came in to do some updates I had noticed that there was not a grounding electrode conductor ran to the metal water feed

The local power company does not allow to terminate GEC's to meter bases. So back to my question, which panel should the GEC terminate in and does it need to be continuous through both panels? Hopefully I cleared this up
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
Normally the most commonly accepted location to terminate your GEC to the GSC is inside the service rated panel. Although the GEC could be terminated inside the meter enclosure as mentioned, I have yet to see an AHJ that would allow it----as most meter enclosures are sealed, and considered unaccessible.
See 250.64(D) for more info..
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
You say there is no main disconnects. I?m curious to know how old the electrical equipment is? And type of panels? Example: Old split bus.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
You say there is no main disconnects. I?m curious to know how old the electrical equipment is? And type of panels? Example: Old split bus.
I believe he is saying there is no one single disconnecting means. He didn't say this, but I believe each panel has an MCB which together are serving as two service disconnecting means.

So far I don't see any non-compliance other than the issue presented in the OP.

On that matter, either each panel is required to have a GEC, or both can have a common GEC, which is then tapped at some point and the two tap conductors are terminated in each panel.
 

resistance

Senior Member
Location
WA
On that matter, either each panel is required to have a GEC, or both can have a common GEC, which is then tapped at some point and the two tap conductors are terminated in each panel.
I believe I said this in my post before my last. As for the answer--it seems this is all the OP is looking for. I guess we are curious about the entire setup.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I believe he is saying there is no one single disconnecting means. He didn't say this, but I believe each panel has an MCB which together are serving as two service disconnecting means.

So far I don't see any non-compliance other than the issue presented in the OP.

On that matter, either each panel is required to have a GEC, or both can have a common GEC, which is then tapped at some point and the two tap conductors are terminated in each panel.
I don't see an issue other than not having the GEC brought to the second panel. that seems like an easy fix.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Electrician
Another problem is 230.7 for the second service conductors using a raceway (the 1st floor panel in this case) with feeders and branch circuits.

Roger
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
If that were the case the word raceway would not be included in 312.8

Roger
I don't see anyway that this section redefines a panelboard as a raceway.

The definition of raceway would seem to explicitly deny your contention.

It is very clear that a raceway is something that is designed expressly for holding wires and may have other functions. A panelboard is not designed to expressly hold wires. It is a panelboard.

Raceway. An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic
materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or
busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this Code.
Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal conduit,
rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight
flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing, flexible
metal conduit, electrical nonmetallic tubing, electrical metallic
tubing, underfloor raceways, cellular concrete floor raceways,
cellular metal floor raceways, surface raceways, wireways,
and busways.
And even if the para you mentioned did redefine what a raceway is it would only apply to article 312 since that is where it is found. panelboards are not in article 312. they are in 408.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Electrician
And even if the para you mentioned did redefine what a raceway is it would only apply to article 312 since that is where it is found. panelboards are not in article 312. they are in 408.
Panelboards are installed in cabinets which is where 312.8 rules. A panelboard is the breakers and buss bars installed in a cabinet.

Roger
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Panelboards are installed in cabinets which is where 312.8 rules. A panelboard is the breakers and buss bars installed in a cabinet.

Roger
I agree with this comment.

I don't necessarily agree that 230.7 applies to this situation. A cabinet can be used as a raceway but is not necessarily a raceway.

I don't like the described installation but yet have not found anything wrong as far as passing these conductors through the other panel is concerned and assuming other conditions that allow this are met like amount of fill of wiring spaces or conductor deration in the raceway that does contain both sets of conductors.
 
Top