My poor client....what to do?????

[lady sparks lover]

I need to resolve this fast, so here's the scenario...

I did a service upgrade design for a Carpet Store, in which I had to design the installation of three meters (1 incoming service conductor from the tranformer, one main disconnect, but 3 meters). They now have a 400A,240 1ph service, but wanted like to add a meter stack, with a main, 2-125A services, and 1-150A service. All have their own separate main for each service.

Well one of the future occupants(one of the 125A services, a coffee shop) calls the owner of the Carpet store , and now wants a 200A, 3 phase service. Her architect screwed up, by not hiring an electrical engineer or even an electrician to tell him what size service he needs. He just assumed the service was three phase, 208V. He orginallly agreed to the 125A, thinking it was three phase. He did his own assessment without consulting someone.

 

[physis]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

If nobody else is going to respond I will. I'm not an engineer but I have an idea of what's involved.

I think your question is about ethics. There certainly aren't any text book answers for that.

I personally have always preferred to use honesty. Not always easy or acceptable or even an option.

If it were me, and I was running the show, I would probably decide to disclose to the property owner that his architect was wasting his money by being inept.

It could be that the owner hired the architect because he's cheap, and he's getting what he paid for.

You could also say that this is great, write more invoices.

All you can really do is what you're hired to do. If you're asking whether to spill the beans on the architect, I think that's what I would do.

Mostly I think that reputation matters. At least that's how I think.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

As per what your saying,it seems they have changed every thing involved.Thats fine if they know that all your previous work was wasted or at least on the service end.Ant numbers are now thown out as to almost every thing except the 2 other loads.Perhaps this new client is worth what it will now cost,thousands from just a rough idea what now is involved.They will get that back in a few months rent.I would bill for all work as of today and then start over.They most likely have no idea of the impact involved and possibly could care less.We often see remodels before the the building ever gets a C O .I would say at this point they can not affort to switch,so charge as you feel is fair.Not saying gouge but they owe far more and point this out before spending any mor time.In there minds this might be minor.Let them know that this is not a minor change.No reason to even lose a minute of sleep over this,its not your problem if they got talked into something they did not ask you first about.From seeing your other posts i think you know how to deal with this

 

[oliver100]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

Run a new 3 phase service as requested and charge them accordingly. There is no fault of yours.

Most of the architects thing they are everything - structural, mechanical, electrical and communication know how. Unfortunately most of the time they are the first line of communication between the client and the trades.

 

[brentp]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

Offer solutions to the problem, don't place blame. Then what Jim said.

 

[hurk27]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

Lady You will find that most non-electricians will not have a clue as to how much power they need to run a shop. The problem with this is some try to take matters into their own hands while trying to keep any cost to them as low as possible. The problem with this is the result. and your there now. Always remember if you do your job your done. if they had asked to have you size the service for this shop then you (I'm sure) would have done that. But if this is done by others then the lease needs to be looked at by a lawyer who specializes in this field. You can not ajust for a mistake that should have been covered in the lease as a error on the coffee shop owner. I'm not a lawyer but I can see where poor written lease can be a problem. so maybe this needs to fall back on the building owner. We had this happen on a strip mall where a tanning solon owner moved in and just starting out didn't have the money to up grade the service to meet his requirements. The owner allowed him to try to run on the existing service which overloaded when the tanning solon owner changed the service main from 100 amp to a 200. without changing the conductors. Well on the second day it melted down. And the blame started flying. We were lucky as we documented and had them sign that we stated to them that the service would not be able to supply this solon and we strongly suggested it be up graded. They even came back and asked for us to do the repairs after all the trouble. Which we declined.

 

[peter d]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

Were any load calculations presented to justify the need for a 200 amp service?

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

sounds to me that the new coffee shop owner went out and bought equipment that is three phase -- they don't know there's a difference -single phase or three phase? two solutions --- provide a second service drop of 200 amps three phase strickly for the coffee shop and let them pay for it, or have them change the coffee shop equipment to single phase---it isn't like a coffee shop has a need for much equipment that would be three phase.....

 

[lady sparks lover]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

Thank you, you all have been very helpful!!! I'm considering just scrapping my drawing, and letting his engineer do it entirety. No liability!!

One question, can I install lights that have not been wired, but will be wired in the future. I have to look that up in the code. Right now, the panel installation is under his control, so I have nothing to do with that anymore, but she still has the responsibility of the installtion of lights, and rerouting the HVAC wiring.

How should I do this?


Lady

[ February 17, 2005, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: lady sparks lover ]

 

[charlie b]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

As far as the NEC is concerned, installing a light without wires is essentially the same as placing the light, in its original box, on a shelf. The code is not concerned about anything with no wires attached.

 

[iwire]

Re: My poor client....what to do?????

Charlie that could be a very sticky issue.

If we look at 90.1 it supports your view.

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

Lets say I install unwired fixtures in a dropped ceiling would I still have to follow the NEC support requirements.

I think so.

410.16 Means of Support.

(C) Suspended Ceilings. Framing members of suspended ceiling systems used to support luminaires (fixtures) shall be securely fastened to each other and shall be securely attached to the building structure at appropriate intervals. Luminaires (fixtures) shall be securely fastened to the ceiling framing member by mechanical means such as bolts, screws, or rivets. Listed clips identified for use with the type of ceiling framing member(s) and luminaire(s) [fixture(s)] shall also be permitted.

From a liability stand point I would at least follow all NEC rules that would apply to any equipment that is installed even if unwired.