Mystery of the Day

[JFletcher]

No problem, I won't violate by remarking, I just won't remark!

No remark is the best remark of the day LOL

 

[kingpb]

#1 from experience. The HO is probably lying about "everything used to work and now it doesn't". This has led many a good man down a rabbit hole.
#2 from experience. The HO is probably lying about "nothing recently being done/changed". Often times they say this because they don't want to look foolish. Again, many a rabbit hole has been occupied by the unwitting.
#3. Never compromise your integrity by doing something that is against Code, nature, or good design practices. It is what it is, and it costs what it does to do it right. Better to walk away and be able to sleep at night.

 

[Little Bill]

Mystery Solved

Mystery Solved

Well, it's not a mystery anymore. I had told the HO what to look for and which way I thought the wires ran so he could take up/off some boards. I was going to go back and check further once he had the boards out of the way.
He called me today and said he thought he found it. There is some hollow logs at the ceiling with wood plates cut out of the log and nailed back. This was used as a chase for some of the wiring.

There are some short pieces of 2x4 nailed in the hollow part used as a nailer for the wooden plate. He was prying out one the the short 2x4s so that he could see. When he pried it out one of the lights went out. The nail that held the 2x4 had hit two cables at the same time and shorted the hots. He was lucky he didn't get shocked when prying it out. I think he was just prying behind it and hadn't touched the nail. The cables made a turn and went down a bored hole, that's where the nail hit them.

This has been this way since the cabin was built. I'm guessing that the logs shifted from settling or twisted from drying over time and it just now moved enough to short. The guy is very honest as I have dealt with him both from working for him and him working for me (he has digging equipment).
So I know that both he and his wife were telling me the truth about not doing or having any work done to cause this.

 

[Little Bill]

I never went back since the HO said everything was working. I wonder if I should go and megger test the switch legs? Not much I could do if they are close to not passing though.

 

[just the cowboy]

fix the insulation

fix the insulation

I never went back since the HO said everything was working. I wonder if I should go and megger test the switch legs? Not much I could do if they are close to not passing though.

You may want to go and fix the nail hole in the wire, just because he pulled the nail don't mean he fixed the wire.

 

[Little Bill]

You may want to go and fix the nail hole in the wire, just because he pulled the nail don't mean he fixed the wire.

Yep, I thought about that. I guess I'll tell the HO to "uncover" the area again so I can check/repair the area where the nail went through.

 

[Andy Delle]

Smart Switches!

Smart Switches!

Not the case here but today there are "smart switches" that can be addressed together so that one switch can also turn several others on or off. They inject RF data onto the AC line similar to the old X10 system. Obviously they look more like dimmers on the back than simple switches but I can see where this could fool somebody as well.

IIRC, this is why the latest NEC now requires a neutral at every switch because these are becoming more and more popular. The cheat lacking a neutral in the box is to connect the switch control neutral to ground. Fairly harmless at this micro current level but nevertheless the ground shall not be used for any normal current carrying.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Not the case here but today there are "smart switches" that can be addressed together so that one switch can also turn several others on or off. They inject RF data onto the AC line similar to the old X10 system. Obviously they look more like dimmers on the back than simple switches but I can see where this could fool somebody as well.

IIRC, this is why the latest NEC now requires a neutral at every switch because these are becoming more and more popular. The cheat lacking a neutral in the box is to connect the switch control neutral to ground. Fairly harmless at this micro current level but nevertheless the ground shall not be used for any normal current carrying.

You are kidding right!

 

[Andy Delle]

You are kidding right!

Remember these products are sold directly to homeowners for DIY installation. I acknowledge using the ground as a neutral is illegal. But this is a common trick when these smart switches are installed in switch boxes with no neutral present. Since the smart switch electronics pulls a milliamp at most, it's not really a safety issue but nevertheless still a code violation.

Keep in mind a legacy three wire dryer or range puts far more current on the ground than any smart switch. But then 3 wire hook-ups for dryers and ranges are not allowed in new work. I think that was 2008 NEC IIRC.

Also look in any HVAC truck. You will most likely find a cut off extension cord female end terminated to alligator clips. When they need to use the vacuum pump and no AC outlet is present they will just connect the hot to one of the 240v legs and the neuttral and ground to the condenser frame. Sure it's illegal under the NEC but done all the time.

Products:

Old X10 from the 1970s, these did not generally need a neutral.
Newer products from Insteon and others do need a neutral.

 

[kwired]

Remember these products are sold directly to homeowners for DIY installation. I acknowledge using the ground as a neutral is illegal. But this is a common trick when these smart switches are installed in switch boxes with no neutral present. Since the smart switch electronics pulls a milliamp at most, it's not really a safety issue but nevertheless still a code violation.

Keep in mind a legacy three wire dryer or range puts far more current on the ground than any smart switch. But then 3 wire hook-ups for dryers and ranges are not allowed in new work. I think that was 2008 NEC IIRC.

Also look in any HVAC truck. You will most likely find a cut off extension cord female end terminated to alligator clips. When they need to use the vacuum pump and no AC outlet is present they will just connect the hot to one of the 240v legs and the neuttral and ground to the condenser frame. Sure it's illegal under the NEC but done all the time.

Products:

Old X10 from the 1970s, these did not generally need a neutral.
Newer products from Insteon and others do need a neutral.

Pretty certain that change was in 1996. Been over 20 years and we still get people that think it is something new.

And I have both male and female cords with alligator clips. I have many potential uses for them and not just to steal power from something when a receptacle isn't readily available. They are handy for connecting circuit tracers and other troubleshooting purposes as well.