"neat and workmanlike"

[jasons]

I have always wondered why that the nec does not
include workmanship in its pages. I know that there are places that say things should be done this way, but where in the code does it set forth guidelines for neat work?

I know that there are probably a lot of you out there that do not think that this should be covered. You are also probably the same type of people that just get in get it done and get out.

My father started this business about 40 yrs ago. He has many repeate clients. We have two facilities that we have done work in for 25 + years. One of the biggest reasons is our "neat and workmanlike manner". We have problems with a lot of these fly blowers. The work is barely up to code and looks terrible. Yeah they might loose that customer but that customer may not need anymore work done for several years. By that time there will be another fly blower to replace him and the cycle starts all over again.

This is why I think the nec should set very stringent guidelines of the "neatness" of electrical work.

For all of you that this upsets, I am sorry.
Maybe you need to look at the "neatness" of your installations.

p.s. I mostly wanted to gripe, but all comments are appreciated.

 

[charlie b]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

Articles 110.12, 640.6, 640.22, 640.43, 720.11, 725.6, 760.6, 770.8, 800.6, 820.6, and 830.7 each have a statement to the effect that circuits and equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner. What is it that you are looking to add? Standards of neatness? That is not the role of the NEC. Safety is the role of the NEC.

If the law requires any action, then some person will have to pass judgment on compliance. I, for one, do not want to have one person?s installation work subjected to some other person?s opinion with regard to its degree of neatness.

 

[iwire]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

Originally posted by jasons:
I have always wondered why that the nec does not include workmanship in its pages. I know that there are places that say things should be done this way, but where in the code does it set forth guidelines for neat work?

There are 10 spots in the NEC other than 110.12 that use the word "workmanlike".

How would you like to enforce them, one persons idea of neat is another persons disaster.

Originally posted by jasons:
I know that there are probably a lot of you out there that do not think that this should be covered. You are also probably the same type of people that just get in get it done and get out.

What about freedom of choice for the customer, if they want a low budget job that is done safely although ugly that is up to them.

I work for a company that charges top dollar for our work and for that they get a professional code compliant neat job, that is our selling point.

I do not think the code should get involved with issues that are not true hazards.

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

That to me says the code has no business deciding on how a job looks.

Bob

 

[sparkmantoo]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

we call them "Jack Leg 'Lectricians". take pride in your work and make it look neat don't be like Jack.

 

[roger]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

Jasons, I hate to bring this to your world, but when auditors, taxpayers, or bankers are involved, money is the only concern. If the sloppy installation saves money it will most likely win the job. Yes it's frustrating to see another contractor leave town in the hole knowing you had a true number that you could have made a descent and honest profit from, but it is a fact of the business. Get used to it.

Roger

 

[bennie]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

I once knew a guy who did work like an artist. He was even neat filling out his bankruptcy petition.

 

[mikeames]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

This is why a Ferrari costs more than a Neon.....People have choices but they both go from A to b.

 

[jerod]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

now i know why i see jobs looking like a fisrt year apprentice was the only person on the job. i have finally convinced our engineering to add my specs and details to the drawings and contract. it is again stressed at bid meetings. i had to get out of business for this reason. i refused to put my name on work that was not neat. there are extraordinary electricians who can make a project look more than code with very little. the comment that ones idea of a neat job is another ones disaster, i dont buy it. an experienced consciencious journeyman electrician knows a neat job when he sees it. thats a cop out making a statment like that. a contractor is judged on his work whether it can be seen or not. i have overheard and conferred with prime contractors overlooking their subs jobs and will not use them again even though it was to contract and up to code. i am also sick and tired of hearing contractors or lead electricians blaming the younger electricians for shoddy work. they should be setting the example for them not complaining. there is a price to pay and it should be paid. this trade is going to hell in a hand basket from the jobs i have seen in the last twenty years. and it is because the engineers have to be more diligent and not take the low bidders. i have no problems once the prime is involved to get changes made that i feel are not neat or workmanlike. once it is explained, the subs are usually happy to learn and make the change. the ones that dont are remembered and quite often embarrased. this is a touchy subject for me and i probably should not have responded but i think i know where the poster is comming from.

 

[russellroberts]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

Imho,you can do a reasonably neat job and still come out on top. Butyou can be neat to a fault too.

I've worked for contractors on both ends of the spectrum. Some insisting on perfection,or as close as humanly possible,while others didn't care how you got from point a to point b.

I do mostly residential work,and have gotten several jobs in the last few years because someone saw our work before the sheetrock went up. But I'm not a super neat freak.

A lot of my work is remodel,and it's T&M,if you take it to extremes,you're costing the customer money. If it's contract,you're costing yourself money. I think there's a middle ground,reasonably neat but not perfect has been a good compromise for us.

Exposed work usually requires a bit more finesse,but no need to spend all day on 1 piece of pipe. just mho.

Russell

 

[charlie]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

You want standards for what is good workmanship? OK, you got it. Look at NECA 1-2000, Standard Practices for Good Workmanship in Electrical Contracting. It is my understanding that more and more plans are coming out with the NEIS (National Electrical Installation Standards) specified and they are the standard that explains the minumum level of work.

 

[michael nye]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

My wiring on my jobs are so neat the customer forewent the drywall, no just kidding, I am a nut for not we call it spider wire, I dislike the look and it say's alot about the whole job. I tell you a real time saver that helps are those plastic stack its, keeps you away from the edge of the stud and saves a ton of time stapleing

 

[lady sparks lover]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

it won't say workmanlike, because some of us are ladies...just kidding.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

Lady

Do not lower your standards (to be workmanlike). If I had five women workers I could retire.

My def. of workmanlike:--- Could I defend it in court????

Mike P.

 

[bennie]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

If we allow a third party to tell us how to make a job pretty, soon we will have a dress code, white shirt and tie.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

Bennie

What about 35-10?

What about PDA?

MikeP.

 

[bennie]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

Mike P. Huh?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

Bennie

35-10 is the military dress code.

PDA is the public display of affection.

At one time they were not related, but today who knows!

Mike P.

 

[brian john]

Re: "neat and workmanlike"

IMO:

It takes very little extra effort to do good neat work that to do sloppy work. If one in the habit of doing quality, it come naturally, if you do sloppy work as a normal installation practice then it might take you more time to do quality work.

Years ago someone told me why is there never enough time in a project to do a good job, but there always enough time to correct the deficiencies on the punch list.

If the design firms inspected enough jobs and they held the contractors to the job specs, this might be corrected.

We bid acceptance testing for projects, and on some projects we do not get called to perform the testing. When I call the contractors regarding the testing, the answer I usually receive is they slid by the specs on this one. We also get called after some jobs are online, by excited contractors, wanting to know if we can test a project once it is on line and operating.