NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

[bomar]

NEC 210-12 or 210.12 depending on the code edition is causing a bit of a problem with plan checking in my area. Some of the Electrical Inspectors believe that this section ( article) indicates that any work done to the electrical in a bedroom would require that all circuits in that bedroom be retrofitted with AFCI's. Others think that the section can only be applied to a newly constructed bedroom or to a bedroom conversion.

I tend to go along with the latter thinking.

Any thoughts from you guys?

Bomar

 

[bennie]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Regardless of personal feelings of forum members you will still be bound by the inspectors opinion.

Submit a request for a binding decision by the authority who adopted the code.

 

[roger]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

I agree with Bennie, but take note the 99 requirement is for receptacles not all outlets

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Here in MA they reworded 210.12(B) added an FPN and added a 210.12(C).

Short version, if you do a panel change you must provide arc faults where required by the NEC.

And it is made clear you could use a AFCI receptacle that is listed to protect the entire circuit.

Do they make one of these yet?

Bob

 

[bennie]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Bob: I sure hope the entire service is never required to be connected through an arc fault breaker, if there ever is one. I can imagine the cost.

The service is protected by arc gaps in the meter. That should be enough.

 

[iwire]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Bennie I figure that a 100 or 200 amp AFCI breaker would not fit in any current panels, so I see them selling it as an AFCI main panel.

I wonder what price this would be? $1,000? all in the intrest of consumer safety.

Bob

 

[bennie]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Bob: If it happens, and I was a young person, I would consider becoming an Amish.

I have great respect for them anyway.

 

[pierre]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Bob and Bennie

Have either of you heard, read, or know of any of the research that has resulted from the past 2 or so years that AFCI's have been required for installation? Would you even be objective of the results if they are contrary to your position at the moment?
Just curious, at the moment I am on the fence.

Pierre

 

[iwire]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Pierre I am not qualified to answer that, all I know is what I have read here and at other forums.

I am generally for additional safety devices but the guys here raise some good questions about the effectiveness AFCIs.

I am an optimist I believe that as they become more prevalent the bugs will be worked out of them.

But I do question the motivations of the manufactures, which came first, the product or the need for the product?

 

[bennie]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

I once had a friend who owned a cab company in San Bernardino, California. He owned 50 cabs. He was struggling to make a profit.

A drunk lady passenger dropped a cigarette on her gown, and burnt a hole in it. The driver stopped and had her get out while he stopped the fire.
She asked "don't you have a fire extinguisher" he replied "no, I can handle this, which he did.

The lady demanded replacement of her gown. My friend complied and paid her 100 dollars, for a 50 dollar gown.

The Lady happened to be on the City Council. She backed a bill to require fire extinguishers in every cab. The cost initally would be $2,000.
The 100 dollar loss was the first claim in ten years.

My point of this tale is...Does the need justify the cost?

Oh I forgot...The Lady's husband owned the only fire extinguisher company in town.

 

[bennie]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

This incident happened years ago when $2,000. was a half years income.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Yes adding a $35.00 breaker seems over the top.

Let me just give an example:

Just did a panel upgrade.
The house wiring was/is alum. with some added copper curcuits.

I chose to use AFCI breakers on all the alum circuits.

Why? Why not.

Tested all the outlets with a plug tester. Everything tested fine.

Then I checked them with the new AFCI tester.

One circuit tripped when the AFCI tester was inserted into the outlet.

Had I not installed AFCI breakers, I doubt if I would have found the "flying" splice the previous owner had made.

There would have been no reason for me to have troubleshoot the "bad" circuit.

AFCI's are new to me, however this example is leaning me toward using them in upgrades.

Mike P.

 

[pierre]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

I will say I am not sure myself if the cost of the AFCI is worth the price paid. I am waiting like most to hear some of the results. If the results are not conclusive, then I am not sure what to think. Like Bob has said time will tell.
I believe that the CPSC and UL were a big part of the AFCI early history, what manufacturer would invest all the capitol necessary wihtout that kind of start.

Another problem of this industry and all others for that matter is misinformation. A lot has been written and there will be a period of time before we all know what the AFCI and the related technology is really capable of. Maybe with some tweaking it will be great, maybe in a couple of code cycles it will disappear. I say for safety reasons we give the technology some time, and then we can fully judge its value.
Bennie your story is well understood and has been repeated in history untold times. I am sometimes naive, but I like to chalk it up to believing in people. Most people are good, it is the bad that always seem to stick out.
BTW - I am only voicing my opinion, I certainly am not trying to say either of you are wrong, I have a lot of respect for both of you as your posts show that both of you fit the mold of 'someone who cares'!

Pierre

 

[bennie]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Pierre: I too have mixed feelings about the AFCI's. I hope I am wrong and there is a decrease in bedroom fires.

I have invented about a dozen electrical devices. None of them worth a damn. If I could have gotten a code requirement that everyone in the USA has to buy them, I could live next to Bill Gates.

[ July 18, 2003, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[bennie]

Re: NEC 1999 210-12 and 2002 210.12

Deleted. My computer coughed and posted twice

[ July 18, 2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]