NEC 2014 section 210.12(A) exception

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hhsting

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Exception shown below where can this be applied I am confused. Any detectors that are tied to FACP have breakers inside FACP. Does this mean there are detectors that supply thru AC panelboard and the FACP and those AC panelboard breaker should not have AFCI? Not sure where this would apply can anyone please help?



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hhsting said:
Exception shown below where can this be applied I am confused. Any detectors that are tied to FACP have breakers inside FACP. Does this mean there are detectors that supply thru AC panelboard and the FACP and those AC panelboard breaker should not have AFCI? Not sure where this would apply can anyone please help?
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I don't understand this at all. The exception is saying AFCI may be omitted for the branch circuit supplying a fire alarm system/control panel if the conditions are met.
 
The fire alarm control panel doesn't require AFCI protection. Any initiation devices fed from the FACP would likely be 24 volts.
 
Let’s say I have smoke detectors below sketch wired as show. 120V supply come from light circuit from AC panelboard breaker to smoke detectors and From smoke detectors communication wires to FACP. So there can be no AFCI branch circuit breaker that is supply smoke detectors and the lights since detectors connect FACP/fire alarms systems. Not sure if there can be such configuration or not below sketch but is this what the exception in post #1 is trying to say? If not then what exactly does the exception mean post #1?


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If this is a dwelling unit and the lighting circuit requires AFCI protection then the smokes would also. The branch circuit to the FACP does not require AFCI protection.
 
infinity said:
If this is a dwelling unit and the lighting circuit requires AFCI protection then the smokes would also. The branch circuit to the FACP does not require AFCI protection.
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The light switch is in bedroom dwelling unit. However post #1 NEC 2014 Section 210.12(A) exception is for dewelling unit. Would not the post#4 attachment the 120V branch circuit to smokes be considered going to Fire Alarm System and therefore branch circuit can be omitted AFCI? I am sorry but that exception is confusing to me
 
What exactly is fire alarm system? Smoke alarm is part of fire alarm systems in the sketch. I don’t follow

When can one use the post #1 AFCI dwelling unit exception if not in the case of sketch post #4 ?
 
hhsting said:
The light switch is in bedroom dwelling unit. However post #1 NEC 2014 Section 210.12(A) exception is for dewelling unit. Would not the post#4 attachment the 120V branch circuit to smokes be considered going to Fire Alarm System and therefore branch circuit can be omitted AFCI? I am sorry but that exception is confusing to me
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What is so confusing about the exception? The branch circuit feeding a FACP does not require AFCI protection. A smoke alarm in a room that requires AFCI protection also requires AFCI protection.
 
infinity said:
What is so confusing about the exception? The branch circuit feeding a FACP does not require AFCI protection. A smoke alarm in a room that requires AFCI protection also requires AFCI protection.
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Yea but this is Not smoke alarm it’s smoke detector tied to FACP. Their is branch circuit 120V going to the fire alarm system smoke detectors in the sketch. Smoke detectors is part of fire alarm system. Why have AFCI according to exception? What is fire alarm system exception is mentioning if not post #4?

Branch circuit going to FACP would not be considered outlet anyways.
 
hhsting said:
Yea but this is Not smoke alarm it’s smoke detector tied to FACP. Their is branch circuit 120V going to the fire alarm system smoke detectors in the sketch. Smoke detectors is part of fire alarm system

What would be fire alarm systems then?
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Is the fire alarm system installed as per Informational Note #3?
 
Let's back up. Forget the FACP, if the power for the smoke alarm outlet is 120 volts in an area that requires AFCI protection for all 120 volt outlets then it's required. What it is signaling is irrelevant.
 
hhsting said:
Yea but this is Not smoke alarm it’s smoke detector tied to FACP. Their is branch circuit 120V going to the fire alarm system smoke detectors in the sketch. Smoke detectors is part of fire alarm system. Why have AFCI according to exception? What is fire alarm system exception is mentioning if not post #4?

Branch circuit going to FACP would not be considered outlet anyways.
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I'm unaware of a fire alarm system that uses line voltage on the detection devices. Or a line voltage smoke detector that ties to a interconnected alarm panel. Perhaps you can provide make/model of proposed device/panel you propose using. My connection to an alarm system provider indicated no such animal.
Your other thread you suggest the intended application is in a multiple unit assisted living facility, that requires, at least here, a tie into local emergency response not just local alarm. Assuming that is your reason to use a FACP, and also your seaming intent to use the "cheaper" smoke alarms and hoping to tie them to the panel.
The exception you quote to use is strictly for a FACP and the LV devices associated with an alarm system. They exempt the alarm system because they want no "neusiance" trip to disable an alarm system. That too is why we install such systems on a dedicated circuit not to be used by any unrelated devices. The exception quoted, as of the 2017 code (the last codes training I was part of) specifies a standard smoke/CO detector or series of same does not make a fire alarm system for exemption purposes.

infinity said:
Let's back up. Forget the FACP, if the power for the smoke alarm outlet is 120 volts in an area that requires AFCI protection for all 120 volt outlets then it's required. What it is signaling is irrelevant.
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Agreed (y)
 
Fred B said:
I'm unaware of a fire alarm system that uses line voltage on the detection devices. Or a line voltage smoke detector that ties to a interconnected alarm panel. Perhaps you can provide make/model of proposed device/panel you propose using. My connection to an alarm system provider indicated no such animal.
Your other thread you suggest the intended application is in a multiple unit assisted living facility, that requires, at least here, a tie into local emergency response not just local alarm. Assuming that is your reason to use a FACP, and also your seaming intent to use the "cheaper" smoke alarms and hoping to tie them to the panel.
The exception you quote to use is strictly for a FACP and the LV devices associated with an alarm system. They exempt the alarm system because they want no "neusiance" trip to disable an alarm system. That too is why we install such systems on a dedicated circuit not to be used by any unrelated devices. The exception quoted, as of the 2017 code (the last codes training I was part of) specifies a standard smoke/CO detector or series of same does not make a fire alarm system for exemption purposes.


Agreed (y)
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FredB thanks for clarification on that. I am electrical plans reviewer and so I don’t have datasheet or model number of detectors only what’s shown on plans.

Our Fire reviewer wants FACP here so I don’t know the exact cause either.

So your saying one can have following scenarios only available in market:

1. detectors get everything power and signal from FACP and No line voltage connection to the detectors

or

2. if their is line voltage connection to the detectors then they don’t tie into FACP.

What is shown post #4 line voltage to detectors while connecting it to FACP their is no such detector item.


I am going to have to speak with designer, Fire reviewer as reason for FACP and get the manufacturer name, model and post it here. It can take awhile as everyone is on vacation but get back to you once I have the info.
 
hhsting said:
What exactly is fire alarm system? Smoke alarm is part of fire alarm systems in the sketch. I don’t follow

When can one use the post #1 AFCI dwelling unit exception if not in the case of sketch post #4 ?
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A smoke alarm is NEVER used with a fire alarm system. Smoke detectors are used with fire alarm systems.
The difference being is that a smoke alarm is a stand alone device in that it both detects the smoke and sounds an alarm. A smoke detector only detects the smoke and sends a signal to the fire alarm system (fire alarm control panel) and the fire alarm system sends a signal to the alarm devices connected to the system to alert the occupants.
 
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