NEC 2017 section 225.32

[hhsting]

NEC 2017 section 225.32:

The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be readily accessible location nearest point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section requirements of 230.6 shall be utilized

NEC 2017 section 230.6:

Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or other structure under any of the following:
(1) where installed under not less than 2inch of concrete beneath of building
(2) where installed within a building or other structure in a raceway that is encased in concrete or brick not less than 2 inch thick


So in attached sketch side bu side building with firewall by building code make it separate buildings and have fdr#1 and fdr#2 go thru 2 inch concrete or brick firewall lets say then would they be outside feeder and would require disconnect per NEC 2017 section 225.37? Am I correct or incorrect?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

As soon as you say it is two buildings, something I doubt, you need disconnects at or near the point where they enter building 2. Nothing in the sections you are citing says otherwise.

 

[augie47]

How far do the feeder conduits run once they penetrate the outside wall and enter the building ?

 

[hhsting]

As soon as you say it is two buildings, something I doubt, you need disconnects at or near the point where they enter building 2. Nothing in the sections you are citing says otherwise.

Ok but the other part would fdr#1 and fdr#2 considered outside feeder or not and would they need grounding electrode system NEC 2017 section 250.32?

 

[hhsting]

How far do the feeder conduits run once they penetrate the outside wall and enter the building ?

Oh about 100 feet once they enter bldg #2

 

[augie47]

Unless they meet the requirements of 230.6 (encased in concrete) AFTER they enter the building then outside (or immediately inside) disconnecting means must be provided and grouped.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Unless they meet the requirements of 230.6 (encased in concrete) AFTER they enter the building then outside (or immediately inside) disconnecting means must be provided and grouped.

I think he is saying that the conduit is under concrete so it is not in the building until it comes out of the slab. Now whether they are considered grouped, that is another story

 

[hhsting]

Unless they meet the requirements of 230.6 (encased in concrete) AFTER they enter the building then outside (or immediately inside) disconnecting means must be provided and grouped.

But scope of 225 is for outside feeders. Would side by side building where each is considered separate buildings by IBC and have feeders going from one building thru another building in 2 inch concrete or brick firewall make them outside feeder? Where nec say outside feeder definition? Would 225.32 even apply or not? Also would 250.32 apply?

 

[augie47]

Unless it meets one of the "exceptions" can building #2 be fed by two "outside" feeders ???

 

[hhsting]

I think he is saying that the conduit is under concrete so it is not in the building until it comes out of the slab. Now whether they are considered grouped, that is another story

None of the feeders are under building or underground. The feeders are fed from building #1 within building #1 penetrate the firewall and this for brief point are in 2 inch of concrete and then come out of the firewall now within bldg#2 and within building #2 feed panelboards 100 feet away

 

[hhsting]

Unless it meets one of the "exceptions" can building #2 be fed by two "outside" feeders ???

Do you considered them outside feeders? Please see my previous post I am repost here

None of the feeders are under building or underground. The feeders are fed from building #1 within building #1 penetrate the firewall and this for brief point are in 2 inch of concrete and then come out of the firewall now within bldg#2 and within building #2 feed panelboards 100 feet away

 

[augie47]

I did not follow your initial post and your reference to Art 225 and 230.6 threw me off as neither applies.
Disconencts would be required and would need to be grouped.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Ok but the other part would fdr#1 and fdr#2 considered outside feeder or not and would they need grounding electrode system NEC 2017 section 250.32?

Nothing in that sketch is considered outside the building as stated in 230.6. That rule applies to the raceway itself.

 

[hhsting]

I don’t follow any of you.

Attached is elevation view. All fdrs are inside building nothing underground or under the building. For brief point they pentrate firewall at least 2 inch concrete or brick between two buildings which separates them into two buildings

 

[hhsting]

Nothing in that sketch is considered outside the building as stated in 230.6. That rule applies to the raceway itself.

Please see post #14 sketch. Fdrs are in conduit and for brief point enter the concrete firewall at least 2 inch thick which creates separate buildings.

Would these be outside feeders or not? How does 230.6 and 225.32 not apply? Also would 250.32 apply?

 

[hhsting]

I did not follow your initial post and your reference to Art 225 and 230.6 threw me off as neither applies.
Disconencts would be required and would need to be grouped.

What code requires them to be grouped?? Please see post #14 attachment for what I am talking about

 

[suemarkp]

I don't see how these are outside feeders. Two "separate" buildings butted up against each other with a fire wall does not make the other building "outside". 250.32 is more of a grey area to me as to whether each legally separate building within that one large structure needs it own grounding electrode system or not. There are many grey areas and things open to interpretation in the NEC. As a plan reviewer, you should work hand in hand with the inspection department so you are all using the same assumptions. It is nice when those interpretations/assumptions are written down so everyone can see them (from designer to plan reviewer to inspector).

I would think most condos or town houses have this design issue. How has it been handled in your area? Houses with detached garages that become attached via a breezeway and common roof are another grey area. Some areas use having a common roof as the discriminator as to what is separate and what is not.

 

[hhsting]

I don't see how these are outside feeders. Two "separate" buildings butted up against each other with a fire wall does not make the other building "outside". 250.32 is more of a grey area to me as to whether each legally separate building within that one large structure needs it own grounding electrode system or not. There are many grey areas and things open to interpretation in the NEC. As a plan reviewer, you should work hand in hand with the inspection department so you are all using the same assumptions. It is nice when those interpretations/assumptions are written down so everyone can see them (from designer to plan reviewer to inspector).

I would think most condos or town houses have this design issue. How has it been handled in your area? Houses with detached garages that become attached via a breezeway and common roof are another grey area. Some areas use having a common roof as the discriminator as to what is separate and what is not.

Then what is 225.32 talking about it refers to 230.6 requirements applying. 230.6 says if its in 2 inch concrete encased then its outside? You got firewall at least 2 inch concrete. Would they be outside If the feeders go underground underneath and then come up?

 

[augie47]

1. You answered your own question about Art 225. No part of the feeder is outside (t'ts' not physically outside nor is the entire feeder encase in concrete)

None of the feeders are under building or underground. The feeders are fed from building #1 within building #1 penetrate the firewall and this for brief point are in 2 inch of concrete and then come out of the firewall now within bldg#2 and within building #2 feed panelboards 100 feet away

2. I also find 250.32 to be a grey area. If, as stated, they are 2 buildings one could rule 250.32 applies, but they could also be considered one structure and not apply 250.32 AHJ CALL
3. I based my "grouping" on the 1st sketch thinking those were service disconnects. Your 2nd drawing shows the service disconnects to be grouped.

 

[hhsting]

1. You answered your own question about Art 225. No part of the feeder is outside (t'ts' not physically outside nor is the entire feeder encase in concrete)


2. I also find 250.32 to be a grey area. If, as stated, they are 2 buildings one could rule 250.32 applies, but they could also be considered one structure and not apply 250.32 AHJ CALL
3. I based my "grouping" on the 1st sketch thinking those were service disconnects. Your 2nd drawing shows the service disconnects to be grouped.

2nd drawings says one disconnect is 100 feet from point of entrance and second one is 50feet from point of entrance. So both disconnects are like 50 feet apart from each other

Where it says entire feeder has to be concrete encased. It just says concrete encased till nearest point of entrance. Part thats in fire wall is outside concrete encased. Its not in bldg #1 nor bldg#2 or is it considered to be in both bldg #1 and bldg#2?

If disconnect is required nearest point of entrance of feeders bldg#2 then which code section you are applying? 225.32?