NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

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jomama2

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I am building a new Publix store in Forsyth Co. Ga. The electrical inspector is enforcing this code change for all the 120 volt, 15 & 20 amp outlets in the Bakery/Deli area. I managed to convince him that it would not be a good idea to have all the refrigerated cases on these circuits to prevent nuisance tripping and possibly spoiling alot of food. The specs require these circuits to be twist-lock receptacles.

I have power poles in these areas and for non-refrigerated loads I have pulled one neutral per A,B,C phases. I am having to change the regular 120 volt straight blade receptacles to GFCI recepts to comply with this new code.

My question is, can a GFCI receptacle share a common neutral?

I have asked advice from numerous people and usually get a quick yes... however I seem to remember having alittle trouble in the past with this.

Is there an electrical reference source that will back me up... say a manufacturers data sheet or electrical textbook... or will I have to "wing it"...?

It is a change-order situation but time and conduit fill figure into wether I can accomplish this as a quick fix or a major problem. I do not wish to make a judgement call only to have them call back in a month to re-pull additional wire and eating the cost and looking incompetent.
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

A shared neutral on the line side of GFCI receptacles will not affect the GFCI.

The refridgerated cases (if they are in the kitchen) are not exempt from having GFCI protection twist lock or not.

Roger
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Hi Roger,

Thanks for the quick reply. I thought it would be OK but I needed to be sure. You are VERY right about the refrigerated cases and I think I won a big concession from him on that one. I do have another question about this change. Why did it take so many years for this code change to come about? Is there an explanation offered by the code designers? Have there been some safety issues involved or possible lawsuits? I am also curious about these dedicated circuits in respect to the refrig. cases that have twist-locks... wasn't the origional design of the GFCI intended as personel protection? and what constitutes a kitchen? Why are they not requiring them in the Produce, Seafood and Meat departments..?
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Seafood especially,MMMMMMMMM Lobster !!!!Think of that a tank not GFCI required or did I not do my homework?
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

I would be carefull over the concession he gave you.Your both setting yourselfs up for a law suit should anyone get electricuted from that frig.
And yes as Roger stated the gfci will work.
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Jomama2, welcome to the forum.

The reason for the additional GFCI requirement is do to a fatality in a commercial kitchen I have heard.

Ryan618 is a member and an inspector who has been sued over a restaurant loosing power to a refridgerator. He as well as others will know more of the reason for the addition.

I would think about the concession from your inspector. If something were to happen in the future, this concession will not relieve you from being held (in the least) partially accountable.

Why are they not requiring them in the Produce, Seafood and Meat departments..?
Click to expand...
This is a good question and is probably just an oversight in the wording of the requirement.

Roger
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Well, since the section specifically states receptacles, if one wanted to work around providing GFCI protection wouldn't hard wiring the unit be code compliant?
(I am not saying I would I am just throwing it out for argument sake) ;)
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Hard wiring would probably violate the listing of the equipment or appliance, and in many cases, the cord-and-plug connection serves as the disconnecting means.
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

You've got to realize the reasoning behind the code change. The reason refrigeration isn't exempt is becasue of part of the substantiation presented by Mike Johnsoton (CMP 19) to CMP 2 to get the change of 210.8(B)(3). Basically, Mr. Johnston showed the CMP a whole list of dead bodies from kitchens. One of them was mopping a floor when he slipped and grabbed the handle of the refrigerator to avoid falling. The refrigerator was energized due to a faulty cord and leakage current energizing the frame of the fridge. When he touched the fridge he was killed. That is why there are no exceptions.

It was not an oversight on the part of the CMP. The NFPA doesn't care about your sea food, they care about dead bodies.
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Under no circumstances should you not GFI the refrigeration cases in the commercial kitchen. With a little bit of "off the shelf" parts you could easily make a control system that would send an alarm if the boxes loose power.

Don't set yourself up for a lawsuit!!!!

Mike
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

If a person can be shocked by a refrig. in a commerical kitchen (and surely they can), then couldn't a person be shocked by a refrig in their home kitchen? Did the 2005 code add home refrigs in the kitchen to the GFCI list?
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Here is just a wild guess maybe some others can provide some facts.

The refrigerator at a house gets pushed into place and stays there for years most times.

A commercial kitchen is a rough environment equipment gets moved around for cleaning etc and cords get damaged.

Add that to the fact that a commercial kitchen is almost entirely grounded metal surfaces, often with puddles of water on conductive floor materials and I think that is reasonable to treat a dwelling kitchen differently from a commercial kitchen.

JMO, Bob
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

WOW guys...

I wish to thank ya'll for taking the time to answer my query... I did not realise there were enough people hurt to warrant this change, but it still seems with the millions of kitchens built prior to 2002, this hasn't been an issue sooner.

I have heard from the inspector on another store we are doing in the same county that his definition of a kitchen is any area involved with food prep for consumption and the other depts I mentioned are not. But I am really concerned about these areas since the employees actually "hose down" the entire dept at the end of each shift.

I also do not understand why any circuit above 20 amps is exempt since most of these cases are 30 amps...I could actually up size the breakers, cords, devices etc. to circumvent the code since the FLA is high enough to allow larger connections and breakers.
The more I think about this the more questions I can come up with as to why this code needs to be clarified.
I would think that it goes beyond mine or any other electricians' scope of responsibility and that we need to have architects and engineers involved in the design process... I mean if we look at it from a saftey issue, I could walk the entire store and point out other areas that even involve customers leaning in these other "fixed" cases and see a potential problem.

Again... thank for your time and knowledge... I might not sleep real well tonite thinking about this... it sometimes makes me want to give up and go to Home Depot and sell the heck out of light bulbs...

PS: Hey Wayne... I hope the Seafood guy is smart enough not to grab any lobster that looks "cooked" before he takes it out of the tank... ;)
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Why waste a perfectly good piece of lobster???? But if there is a piece of the puzzle that meets the criteria what to do?Sorry I am preocupied with Ivan today just got power back and it looks like we are in harms way......
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

Ivan just might wipe Tampa off the map.It is a 5 and we are already flooded.I made sure i have beer for this one :cool:
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

When you read the ROP/ROC's, it seems as though every cycle people want to include more areas for GFCI requirements, and some of them are very good ideas. I think the reason they are not in the code (yet) is that nobody has shown the CMP any reports of dead bodies resulting directly from something that could be prevented through the use of GFCI's. If a person wants GFCI protection increased in the code, I think Mike Johnston laid out the recipe for it in the ROP for the 2002 edition. Follow that recipe and include the dead bodies, and you will see more protection requirements, in my opinion.
 
Re: NEC 210.8 B GFCI req. for all kitchen outlets

There are (2) things that always come up when talking about gfi's.......cost and neusance tripping.A true professional will install the gfi's where required and not try to find a way around them.If he finds a way to not install them because of some vague interpretation then it seems he can't sleep at night thinking about it.I think it boils down to they need to design an affordable gfi that does its job without neusance tripping. fat chance huh? if it weren't for cost or neusance tripping most would install them without question.
 
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