Nec 250.52

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ptrombley

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2002 NEC 250.52(A)3 allows 20' of 1/2" rebar to be used as a grounding electrode. I am familliar with this type of concrete-encased grounding electrode, but would it be code compliant to continue the rebar from the footing, up inside the building wall cavity and into the electrical service panel? In the panel a proper compression connection is made to a #4 copper conductor which is attached to the grounding lug/bar. Any thoughts? -Paul-
 
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rcarroll

Senior Member
I can't really find anything specific in the code. But, I would sure use something in article 110 to try to fail rebar in a panel. What does the listing on the panel say? Why on earth would you want to install rebar in a panel?
 

tom baker

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Sounds like a good job to do if its time and materials.
Put a mud ring on the wall, install an ancorn clamp and a 4 AWG up into the serivice panel.
 

ptrombley

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Typically the electricians were installing 20' of #4 bare copper in the footing, but it is taken by thieves before the concrete is poured. So-The question was posed.. can we just leave the rebar long enough to run directly into the panel and avoid any exposed copper?
 

romeo

Senior Member
Nec.250.52

Nec.250.52

ptrombley said:
2002 NEC 250.52(A)3 allows 20' of 1/2" rebar to be used as a grounding electrode. I am familliar with this type of concrete-encased grounding electrode, but would it be code compliant to continue the rebar from the footing, up inside the building wall cavity and into the electrical service panel? In the panel a proper compression connection is made to a #4 copper conductor which is attached to the grounding lug/bar. Any thoughts? -Paul-[/QUOTE

I would require a listed fitting to adapt the rebar to the panel enclosure.

Others have responded with reasonable solutions. Could you give a reasonable purpose for using this method?
 

Dennis Alwon

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ptrombley said:
2002 NEC 250.52(A)3 allows 20' of 1/2" rebar to be used as a grounding electrode. I am familliar with this type of concrete-encased grounding electrode, but would it be code compliant to continue the rebar from the footing, up inside the building wall cavity and into the electrical service panel? In the panel a proper compression connection is made to a #4 copper conductor which is attached to the grounding lug/bar. Any thoughts? -Paul-
Paul you can attach to the rebar just as you would a ground rod. If you have a crawl space you could bend it into the crawl space and run your copper in the walll to the crawl area and attach with appropriate fitting.
 

romeo

Senior Member
Nec 250.52

ptrombley said:
Typically the electricians were installing 20' of #4 bare copper in the footing, but it is taken by thieves before the concrete is poured. So-The question was posed.. can we just leave the rebar long enough to run directly into the panel and avoid any exposed copper?

Let the rebar extend out of the slab,then spit bolt a connector of a type listed for connecting the purpose.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
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Henrico County, VA
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ptrombley said:
2002 NEC 250.52(A)3 allows 20' of 1/2" rebar to be used as a grounding electrode. I am familliar with this type of concrete-encased grounding electrode, but would it be code compliant to continue the rebar from the footing, up inside the building wall cavity and into the electrical service panel? In the panel a proper compression connection is made to a #4 copper conductor which is attached to the grounding lug/bar. Any thoughts? -Paul-
Yes: put the rebar into the panel BEFORE you fasten the panel in place. ;)
 

George Stolz

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I echo the sentiments of the other posters: Wwwhhhaaa? :D

tom baker said:
Put a mud ring on the wall, install an acorn clamp and a 4 AWG up into the service panel.
I don't know of any acorn (ground rod) clamps that are listed for rebar connection, a listed rebar connector might be a better choice. ;)

Edit to add: If copper theft is still a concern with Tom's method, you could also install a PVC sleeve from the CEE to the panel as well, and install the GEC after drywall.

That would be far more orthodox than physically sticking the rebar into the panel.
 

tom baker

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georgestolz said:
]

I don't know of any acorn (ground rod) clamps that are listed for rebar connection, a listed rebar connector might be a better choice. ;)
This has come up before, the state of oregon has a detail that shows an acorn clamp used for this, Don G. pointed out the acorn clamp can be used for this.
 

ptrombley

Member
First, let me say that this is my first post and I want to thank everyone for your input on this. Here in the Phoenix-Arizona valley virtually all of our tract homes are built as slab on grade, with a perimeter foundation which extends 12 to 18 inches into earth. The contractor forms up the perimeter footings and sets the rebar. They place 20' of #4 bare copper near the bottom of the footing (leaving enough to reach the grounding bar at the future panel location) and then call for a footing inspection. Unfortunately, the inspection does not occur until the next business day or later and that gives those who "collect" copper plenty of time to make their rounds at night. Even after the concrete is poured, they will come out and cut the copper ufer off at the slab. In an effort to remove the theft temptation and avoid the need for an accessible connection at a mud ring, I wondered if it would be code-compliant to leave the rebar sticking up out of the footing/slab long enough to run it directly into the panel. I agree that it does seem odd, but would allowing the rebar to enter the panel be a code violation? Would using the interior space of the panel to connect the rebar and the #4 copper grounding electrode conductor (assuming a listed irreversible connection was used) be in violation of any NEC sections?
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
georgestolz said:
If copper theft is still a concern with Tom's method, you could also install a PVC sleeve from the CEE to the panel as well, and install the GEC after drywall.

Here, the rebar is turned up from the stem wall in the garage. We try to set the panel directly over the rebar. Usually only 3' or so of #4 is all that is needed to run out of the panel, to the rebar. And since it is between the same studs, it could be added after sheetrock.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
georgestolz said:
Got a link, perchance? ;)

sausage-chaurico.jpg
 
Interesting posts and Ufer subject

Interesting posts and Ufer subject

Interesting posts and Ufer subject here. It goes against the intent of the NEC to install a section of rebar directly into the panel and I would not recommend this method; this would imply the rebar is a conductor (studies have demonstrated that 1/2” steel rebar actually does conduct electricity at an equivalent or similar capacity to a #4 Ga copper, but it is not a listed conductor at any voltage per se, only to be allowed when utilized within the special confines of a concrete footer of at least twenty feet in length with minimum steel ties to “other” rebar in the footer assembly as an approved “conductor”) and the grounded conductors entering a panel must terminate within a panel, per 408.21, in an individual terminal...and certain bending radiuses, dissimilar metal types...would, in like manor, be difficult to rationalize as being acceptable.

Now I will attempt to examine the condition of having an “approved” rebar conductor within the footer and a listed grounded conductor in the panel; with a certainty that somewhere between these points an approved connection must be made between these two. The NEC does not specifically allow a section of rebar to protrude from the footer when used as a grounding conductor nor does it prohibit this situation. There we have it; the code is as clear as mud for this all too common scenario. This is one of the rare opportunities to use good judgment.

For the original poster; I would suggest the following as being acceptable. Eliminate the temptation for thieves to remove a copper conductor within an exposed footer by using an approved alternate of at least twenty foot section of half-inch rebar. Simply tie the subject rebar along its length to other rebar present in the footer base and bend (twelve inch radius) the subject rebar to ninety degrees at a location nearby the proposed electrical service location, allowing for the subject rebar to protrude about twelve inches above the concrete. It should be attempted to position this protruding portion between stud bays so the electrical contractor can more easily access this location for connection and so the this section is not exposed to the exterior or unnecessary corrosion. This common sense method utilizes the footer contractor’s tools and materials at hand and permits future access to the Ufer termination should the need arise.
 
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allenwayne

Senior Member
We went through this same scenario a few years ago.For awhile the AHJ allowed the slab guys to bend/upturn under the form boards a piece of rebar that was noted on the placard. Upon rough in we would tie onto it with an acorn and ground wire for the service.The problem came to be on a final.On rough we would bend the rebar into the dirt and bury it and on a final we would get tagged for ufer not exposed for inspection.I fought this tooth and nail but to no avail. The AHJ insisted on the ufer being inspected on a final.

It was signed off on rough but required to be reinspected for any damage.Then the connection to the rebar in the slab happened but as stated the copper thieves quickly got on that wagon !!!!!!We went with the rebar stubbed up in the garage wall and a 2 gang P ring and blank on trim out.
 
In our juresdiction they are allowed to turn up a piece of rebar that is tied with tie wires to the footer steel in an interior wall. Slab inspection this is being checked that it is tied to the steel. On rough electric inspection we look for the bonding jumper or GEC to be connected to the rebar and ran to the appropriate place with a plaster ring installed for accessibilty of the connection. But no revar in the panel
 
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