Nec 518.4(A)

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hhsting

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I have areas of 100 or more occupancy load in historic site. The owner wants All wiring to be surface mounted in metallic rigid conduit as metal raceways in the original building sections, per NEC 2014 article 518.4(A).

However Architect is saying all wiring inside shall be concealed and exposed wires not allowed inside.

Is wiring method mentioned in NEC 2014 518.4(A) areas 100 or more occupancy acceptable by code either surface mounted or concealed ? Or concealed or surface mount not acceptable by code 2014?
 
I cannot speak to actual codes but... Historical society may not allow what architect wants and owner may be more up to what the society wants. If building was commercial in nature originally, such as the Appomattox Iron Works in Petersburg was during the eighties, the local historic society may require that no damage be done to structure of building and also may not allow the brick to be covered by wallboard... thus meaning that the only way left is to use steel conduit along the surface, or IMC... They would not even allow plastics in the waste or gutters or such in eighties in historic zones and made us search everywhere for matching brick even for inside a four foot thick wall.

Historic societies will make rules that make no sense to the actual work sometimes. Have dealt with some that would even tell you what shades and brands of paints were allowed, inside or outside. Petersburg and Williamsburg and Charleston were the worst I had to deal with.
 
One the wiring methods is EMT would code allow EMT inside building to be concealed or surface mounted?
Adamjamma said:
I cannot speak to actual codes but... Historical society may not allow what architect wants and owner may be more up to what the society wants. If building was commercial in nature originally, such as the Appomattox Iron Works in Petersburg was during the eighties, the local historic society may require that no damage be done to structure of building and also may not allow the brick to be covered by wallboard... thus meaning that the only way left is to use steel conduit along the surface, or IMC... They would not even allow plastics in the waste or gutters or such in eighties in historic zones and made us search everywhere for matching brick even for inside a four foot thick wall.

Historic societies will make rules that make no sense to the actual work sometimes. Have dealt with some that would even tell you what shades and brands of paints were allowed, inside or outside. Petersburg and Williamsburg and Charleston were the worst I had to deal with.
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the section you quoted sends you to bonding...250.118... if you go there you see rigid metal, and emt listed... plus the 500 section you listed shows what architect is basically saying...he is probably expecting you to use PVC or such, which needs a fifteen minute finish rating, or to be concrete encased...

I would use metal conduit of some kind that meets the fire ratings, and make sure everything was neat and clean looking.. sounds like that is what the owner wants as well... but if it is in a big historic area, then even though you can by code use the metal conduit as your ground, I would probably go ahead and put a ground wire inside the conduit anyway... because the extra cost to the owner would be offset by many of the insurance companies if their inspector is shown the extra grounding and bonding... At least, the did give the discounts in the 80s and 90s..lol.. have not done historic buildings since then.
 
hhsting said:
The owner wants All wiring to be surface mounted in metallic rigid conduit as metal raceways in the original building sections, per NEC 2014 article 518.4(A).

However Architect is saying all wiring inside shall be concealed and exposed wires not allowed inside.
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Maybe they mean no exposed wires, and not no exposed conduit.
 
LarryFine said:
Maybe they mean no exposed wires, and not no exposed conduit.
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that was my own thought on it... the section he is under in meeting places requires what the architect is stating unless it is n metal raceways or conduits... all exposed wire or non metallic wiring methods need to be covered (finished) to a certain fire rating..think it was 15 minutes... but in old historic buildings sometimes local society will not allow wallboard or other finishing methods. Nothing to do with safety codes but with historical aesthetics... so usually have had no choice but to use rigid conduit, thread it etc... they would not even let me use aluminum in some areas because that would not have been done in the twenties according to the society..lol...
 
hhsting said:
Owner wants All wiring to be surface mounted in metallic rigid conduit as metal raceways in the original building sections, per NEC 2014 article 518.4(A).
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Well give to owner what they want and let them take it up with the architect.


Roger
 
hhsting said:
Owner wants All wiring to be surface mounted in metallic rigid conduit as metal raceways in the original building sections, per NEC 2014 article 518.4(A).

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Article 518.4(A) does not require or even mention surface mounting. Why does the owner want it surface mounted? Is the architect specifying concealed wiring to conform to historical requirements?
 
Craigv said:
Article 518.4(A) does not require or even mention surface mounting. Why does the owner want it surface mounted? Is the architect specifying concealed wiring to conform to historical requirements?
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Those requirements can depend on what was original to the building I would think. But then you get into things that are required that would have never been there back when it was new as well, like fire alarm, emergency egress lighting and have to compromise to some extent.

Some wiring was installed in original black pipe that used to supply gas lamps in some places.
 
kwired said:
Those requirements can depend on what was original to the building I would think. But then you get into things that are required that would have never been there back when it was new as well, like fire alarm, emergency egress lighting and have to compromise to some extent.

Some wiring was installed in original black pipe that used to supply gas lamps in some places.
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And add to that....consider that a historic structure need only be 50 years old, and if of extreme significance may be even newer. So the requirements could be anything from no immediate indication that there is power or HVAC, to what may appear rather normal by today's standards.
 
hhsting said:
Owner wants All wiring to be surface mounted in metallic rigid conduit as metal raceways in the original building sections, per NEC 2014 article 518.4(A).

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk
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Doesn't the architect work for the owner?

How is it your problem to work it out between the architect and the owner, just curious?
 
hhsting said:
Owner wants All wiring to be surface mounted in metallic rigid conduit as metal raceways in the original building sections, per NEC 2014 article 518.4(A).
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518.4 Wiring Methods
(A) General.
The fixed wiring methods shall be metal raceways, flexible metal raceways, nonmetallic raceways encased in not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, Type MI, MC, or AC cable. The wiring method shall itself qualify as an equipment grounding conductor according to 250.118 or shall contain an insulated equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with Table 250.122

Tell me what you don't understand about this article and what the problem is.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
518.4 Wiring Methods
(A) General.
The fixed wiring methods shall be metal raceways, flexible metal raceways, nonmetallic raceways encased in not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, Type MI, MC, or AC cable. The wiring method shall itself qualify as an equipment grounding conductor according to 250.118 or shall contain an insulated equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with Table 250.122

Tell me what you don't understand about this article and what the problem is.

-Hal
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I don't think think type of wiring methods is the problem it is whether they are to be exposed or concealed. 518.4 applies either way.

It might come down to any requirements pertaining to historical preservation, if you must install something in an old building for safety reasons then it may be required to try to conceal it whenever possible so that 1895 building still looks as much as possible like it did in 1895.
 
Except they often will not allow you to cut the brick walls... if the plaster has popped off they sometimes make you pull all the plaster off to match...lol... historical society I often think are more hysterical societies... they actually stopped me from rebuilding a home 8n Virginia because they wanted me to replace the rotted wood foundation with a new wood foundation using original method of making the beams etc... even after told by the building inspectors that I must put a concrete foundation in and raise the house because of a spring on the property...

after five years of fighting with them i let the tax man have the property... because to fix it their way would never pass inspection according to the inspectors...
 
hhsting said:
I have areas of 100 or more occupancy load in historic site. The owner wants All wiring to be surface mounted in metallic rigid conduit as metal raceways in the original building sections, per NEC 2014 article 518.4(A).

However Architect is saying all wiring inside shall be concealed and exposed wires not allowed inside.

Is wiring method mentioned in NEC 2014 518.4(A) areas 100 or more occupancy acceptable by code either surface mounted or concealed ? Or concealed or surface mount not acceptable by code 2014?
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Well, I think we need to re-reading the original post again. It looks like all @hhsting is asking is if the NEC allows RGS or EMT to be run either exposed and/or concealed in a historic site of 100 or more occupancy. The answer is yes to both, you can run it anywhere. The NEC couldn't care less that it's a historic site or how many people occupy it as far as RGS or EMT goes!

He's not asking for advice on historical or architectural aesthetics!

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
He's not asking for advice on historical or architectural aesthetics!

-Hal
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I agree, and that is the reason I said to give the owner what they want, there is no code issue either way.

Roger
 
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